[Music] that went up if we mentioned in the introduction was on the reduction of the dietary protein concentration it's quite an issue worldwide I would see and maybe Mike you're more idea but that I know that this why not maybe you read a little bit but I think it's a big issue also in poetry and v22 videos I think that's a way to put it I'm here with the swine nutritionist and I think they're a lot better than we are but we we have a lot to learn in poultry we've been working hard over the years and trying to reduce protein and with each feed great amino acid that we're implementing we have a subsequent decrease in in protein and the in the work that I've showed here in this graph is is something that I started back in the mid-90s with dr. Brian Kerr and he and I would look at different protein diet week we created a meta-analysis a bit of data around the world and we looked at protein and the reductions of nitrogen per se with the the effect of protein and we found that each incremental decrease from adding feed great amino acids safe from 21 percent to 20 or 22 19 we had between a seven and eight percent reduction of nitrogen so huge benefits for the environment and we just need to determine as because as we lower dietary protein you know we're focusing on the first few essential amino acids and the ones that we call less the limiting are now coming more limiting and we just don't know enough about them to keep going down so it's something we're continuing to learn on and with that said I want to make mention to a publication that Leandro hackin heart put together and we did this because there was a lot of controversy as to okay fourth limiting amino acid how do we how do we go to the next step because this is the point where El threonine had gone from an opportunity ingredient to a staple and least cost formulation for broiler rations across the world and then the question was well how do we out we lower protein more well you go to the fourth limiting amino acid and you you optimize that and we did Elise costs formulation runs in the diet with corn and soybean wheat and soybeans sorghum and soybean fixed amino acid ratios long story short primarily branch change so valine was fourth limiting in the vegetable based diets whereas isoleucine was most limiting in the diets with meat meals so it's a it's a point where those two amino acids specifically need to be focused on in order to be able to reduce protein and going forward we have the ideal protein concept that we use in that we focus on and it was it was established again with the excellent swine nutritionist but we use it and we focus on it if we look at the interplay between valine and isoleucine and I think there's some room to fine-tune those those responses and the levels we need so we can keep producing protein and we we probably need to get glycine in the equation as as much research is starting to focus on looking at glycine and serine is digestible lysine to total glycine serine dr. Dodgers doing most of that work it's really nice way to look at it so we've got to fine-tune these to be able to go to the next level he's interesting and maybe we can challenge the see a formulator to see how he looks at reducing dietary protein content and I'm sure that in Europe it's a big issue but we can ask lane from Cargill in fact what does it mean so for him the reduction of dietary protein content I think I remember more than 25 years ago we already did from trials to find the lowest protein left over and finish your feed for swine and it's still relevant and you get more pleasure also in countries like Germany like them are like Belgium as well on protein s phosphor and then of course it's a challenge which is the next limiting amino acids and also what just mentioned how does that how does the dogs response curve look like that because it might be for certain amino acid that that optimal performance is that unique the ratio of 60% for whatever amino acid but that if you applied 55% you only have a very small reduction in performance with a very strong reduction in cost because especially if you need to reduce that by by including less ingredients if you have all synthetic amino acids available okay you can you can judge because you know the cost of the synthetic amino acids it's relatively easy but if for the amino acids which a lot of vailable synthetic you need to reduce the Soria the AP no and so on the cost will be very high or or it will limit the reduction by a big part so that that's also for new amino acids like halogen for example that for higher volumes of production it will be very important that if suppliers can produce at what will cost be so that that the close cooperation I would always say to investigate to produce such amino acids between the feed industry instruction bias is extremely important to judge how our elephant is such an amino acid and how much will it be used and at what cost it's interesting and if I could add another question Lane about the taking into can see environmentally shion's because you talked about you are formulating for a lot of countries around the world so I think it's important also to look at what would be the effect of the extreme conditions and so on all these formulation objectives and drive-ins extremely high temperature that the whole density of the feed is changing then the amino acid profile may be the level but the profile itself maybe less because in such circumstances in in many cases whole birds are produced instead of instead of breast meat so less profile but more density of the field maybe adjusting the the level of lies in due to this a fixed ratio of the other amino acids goodand eat formulas are not copy/paste from the Netherlands - if it is Sudan with 16 temperatures or such type of countries ok thank you when thinking about the benefits of dietary amino acids we always consider the technical aspects sometimes we forget the return on investment and I'm sure Lane has already addressed a little bit that questions Mike what about the objective if you talk about benefits you know economical benefits well I think that that's the formation of where the response comes into play because we've talked a number of different segments throughout this webinar about so-called requirements and in responses an amino acid needs but clearly you have one chance to put one number in and that's got to be an economic optimum so the response that I put up kind of shows that in a perfect world you can do a dose response and get a amino acid need in a given situation but based on the output based on the economics what is going to be the economic optimum and in this scenario there's presented adjustable valine isoleucine and arginine because I did this for for a reason because if we take an amino acid like lysine and and we know where the response should be if we decrease that response in a minimum and formulation say 5% we were probably going to get a substantial decrease in fee conversion and meat yield from that response but if we decrease a less limiting amino acid 5% we'll see it immediately in terms of diet cost but will we see it in terms of performance so with the economic in play there's a lot we need to do to balance the diet for performance based on the conditions of the integrator I'm sure that lane will also complement on what you say because I think they are facing the issue about what is a return on investment putting more of an amino acid regarding the objectives I would like also to add a question to Tulane not only is a benefit cost ratio but also do we need more information to better or formulate on amino acids more information will be welcome and I can imagine that producers of amino acids like to show that where you see the maximum performance and maybe not optimal or optimal economical performance because then you say all answer synthetic amino acids but I think it is it is important to to to get the highest profit for our for for indicators for farmers for feed mills to know that information because it's almost always Pluto being at a certain moment that are still some response but but what is communicated about it and if that information is only coming from from universities and so on there's much more information available in the market closer call a closer cooperation between the two would be more than welcome because at the end optimization is always we are the input of the ingredients of the nutrients and the crisis in the part of the prices in many research is not or hardly taken into account but I think in most cases not taking the two economies and it drives the formula in the end no quite interesting maybe laughs you told me that yeah you wanted to give some comments on that yeah I agree with her Lane of course in research we're looking at biology we're looking at biological responses and they will change of course especially in poultry they have changed tremendously what changes very rapidly is is prices and of course we can as a scientist if it takes if he should settle them an experimental program and it takes a year or two to do it and another you can establish that just Isis are completely out of the range so I think it's important to combine two we can provide the biological response but the economic context is changing everyday so it's important to re re optimize based on the biological response of the animal absolutely the point good points