[Music] so good afternoon gentlemen I'm quite pleased to welcome such famous experts around the world so I will start by professor having ran from New Zealand from Massey University dr. ferry Panama from Indonesia from Java and professor my kid from city of Arkansas in the States and I think I'd to organize debate this afternoon about quite a challenging topic informal eating diets and the hot conditions and with the challenge between low protein diets and high amino acid intake because we need to make the animal grow anyone can want to start to comment on that before going further on on the debate well I think we have a lot to learn we've been researching this concept for I guess as long as we've been researching in general with poultry science with regard to the specific amino acids in question we we have a difference in the growth rate of the birds so we have loss of muscle we have loss of body weight and we have more turnover so it's it's something that we need to pinpoint on how we can better focus to to meet critical amino acids the the intestine has received some recent attention some work in Southeast Asia but it goes back to the need for amino acids for a first passed protein deposition of mucin for intestinal synthesis and during heat stress you have more issues in the intestine so that area is something that's going to need to be re-evaluated and potentially ramped up but at the same time how do we maintain that growth for example with the birds during the heat stress condition so there's tomorrow we'll go through a lot of information and that's it's kind of I think what everybody's going to do is review the literature and give some key key up zone on things thanks Mike I say fun it's a challenge but in fact growing birth is already a challenge baby your professor haven't run you have a comment on that regarding on the digestibility Zagat physiology and the amino acid demand you know very few reports actually talked about really humidity in the child and also when you talk about high temperature itself there are acute you know they are made there could be differences between acute heat stress and you know continuous heat stress as a recyling heat resin so these are issues which are not really addressed but like Mike mentioned certainly we know that you know intestine is affected during heat each the integrity of the intestine there's inflammation there is more endogenous losses a lot of things happen in the intestine which certainly should have a affect on feed digestibility but unfortunately if you look at the literature there are very limited work done on feed digestibility under hot conditions that is what I mean is you know comparing the thermal neutral conditions and hot conditions in the same trial there are very few reports only there are only very few reports you think we should revise our digestibility values depending on the environment that's a very good question million-dollar question but there's effect on digestibility okay even though it's not conclusive proven by experimental data there is certainly affect on digestibility because of the effect it has on intestine and whether it should be revised that's that's a big big question to us what I feel is we should not do that that that is my my opinion because it doubles the work and also it needs to be done in hot environments again which lacked the research facilities at is from my point of view and also it's it needs quite a bit of capital investment to do research such as this so to repeat in the trials what I see is when you look at the numbers digestible numbers for example protein the decimal numbers for corn soy diet in temperate countries and tropical countries I see very little difference almost we get the more or less similar value within the range and but I don't know what happens when you include byproducts into this whether there's going to be a big difference which will make a big difference that I've suspect clearly you mentioned that hot conditions affect the intestine the metabolism of intensive energy but on the practical term recovery should we change the value or should we use the same values worldwide values and as dr. Hendron say in fact if we use by-product it may be an issue on the practical day what is your position on that I'm using the same value like what you guys use for the for the term term ammonia transferred but that's again we have to be very careful because this is a hit stress chicken so I try to keep the excess of non-essential amino acid as low as possible by playing more with synthetic amino acid that's number one number two dr. Ravindra and said that you know when you have a hit stress somehow you change the you change the profile of the microbe micro bacteria profile in the handguard so make sure I don't fit the back in the Hancock otherwise you know I will create this bacteria sees and second thing I'm trying to make sure that you know this is the issue that probably dr. Kidd and that Raveendran will be will put to me when when I decide independently between the percentage amino acid and energy level but sometimes for tropical country we have to be very careful so sometimes I have to recalculate it back to express my percents of amino acids per 1000 kilo calorie be sure that if I to bring enough with the lower consumption of energy and exactly for example in one of our trial where we do a factory or three pi/3 in the cross house a 3 by 3 3 level of Alison 3 level of energy in the closest and in the open house this is a two different time we to see problem that are we to see that the chicken will eat to satisfy the the calorie furs so when you put your energy is higher the protein the feed intake is through up so your energy what is that your amino acid intake is also true so you have to link these two things together you cannot decide it independently yeah and addressing the question of lowering the protein content of the diet it's a common concern everywhere in the world trying to reduce the nitrogen losses and so on how should we manage that under hot conditions when you think in fact they are already eating less and they need more amino acids in fact to grow well I don't necessarily think it's it's a function of just dropping protein I think balance will be really key and balanced per therm going back to when Owen Thomas established all the amino acid requirements as a ratio to energy and and that will allow for some flexibility and lower in protein so when when we say low in protein we're minimizing excesses we weed so it results in less oil seeds providing excesses so that that catabolism or lack of frees up some some calories for the bird maybe maybe and Brazil having done you want to either come and just do it know what Mike Mike mentioned what I think is you know certainly it has died said we form formulate in the base of digestible amino acids and use of synthetic amino acids all will help and what environment but the question I have is even under thermal neutral condition so we are not really hundred was it sure how to manage the we know that we can reduce the protein a little bit by using the key limiting amino acids plus few more but again it's a cost factor where they're adding excess additional amino acids whether it's balances against the cutting down the protein so it's a question of economics but the point I'm trying to make is they can be translate what he find in the thermal neutral conditions into hot conditions absolutely and there seems to be as you mentioned more intestinal insults with the hot temperature conditions so when you think about the amino acids in question glycine glutamine amino acids that we always don't put at the top of our list potentially we're going to need to be really considered and it because the critical point is the first pass protein for absorption so okay access probably this is dr. Kidd we'll see it if the hit stressed chicken [Music] we experienced in experience increasing the oxidative hit stress so that means you need more cut attire so does it mean that I have to put more if you're made total self or amino acid in the diet and number two the literature said that you know the transport of the amino acid in the hit stressed chicken is somehow is reduced because the turn regulation of the amino acid transporter is that because of the asset because of the competition for the same transporter or simply the transporter is just you know the number is reduced who wants to comment on that because it's clearly a good question in fact I'm we always have challenge about that remembers a lysine arginine and so on and you have always challenge under hot conditions there is a compromise that's a good level and we need to deal with that when we when we formulate and obviously there is more demand for some specific amino acids so in practice dr. Furi when you when you formulate do you think that and and there's a very hot conditions you can face and so on you need to change the amino acid profile so that compared to what you are what we know in the in the rest of the of the world some people said that adding something is improving but the question is what hit stress we are talking about here which one I can't emphasize that point enough that we're having made earlier the the problem is the the research some investigations don't look into a real stress model there's a there's a temperature effect and and that's it but you can't call it stress and you have the point where some researchers have independent rooms or you you lose your experimental power because in reality you need to have multiple rooms in one facility with different temperatures to do it properly so there's a lot of confounding issues with this type of work in that yeah so it's just a temperature 25 21 degrees versus 32 degrees but we are in the natural condition there are a lot of other things going on there's lady humidity there's different types of heat stress and then you have acclamation that is naboo it's also get used to just like us for example in Bangkok most people who are living here don't feel the heat where as we get stressed at least during the first week or so and so acclimatization it's it's certainly a real issue in naturally nob field conditions then you have severity what sort of and duration and timing all these things because it just is a something becomes relevant only after three weeks before that I don't know doctor ferry can't tell us I believe there's no heat stress at least you know the chicken are not as badly affected after as they're after three weeks so there are a number of factors which in an experiment model it's impossible to cover this is a good point tomorrow I will I will show one graph where one day I could kill the chicken at three point five percent of the population because of just of the I call it hits pie so if the previous day is lower compared to the today for example if you have two degrees or three degrees then you start you know seeing a certain Tet syndrome very easy that it's only occur when the bird is at one point five kg or or heavier thirty will again when we talk about heart condition we should really revise what we say and precise what we say regarding the the amino acids and the protein I think it's a very important issue today to consider in fact the amino acid balance regarding also the stress situation I would not see me be out condition earlier but what you mentioned is to say it's stressful conditions meaning stress means stress at the gut level maybe you're some loss of amino acids and so on and maybe it's more a general topic than just on the hot conditions I would say maybe you see what I mean like loss of amino acid might be important whatever the condition it's a stress conditions that create more demand click clearly stress in general if we look at physiological stress the the first aspect in terms of the poultry whole-body synthesis is more fat and less protein so there's a lot of things that are taking place with amino acid supply and all stress environments that are going to change supply quite a bit so absolutely what they believe is despite there is no conclusive evidence I believe there's a effect on digestibility because of the fact you know there's intestines very badly affected but what I think the effect on post-absorptive metabolism is much much greater than what is he on the digest intestinal on the on the first level of digestive issue do you think enzyme Franzen's can help to we say you solve a little bit or help the animals to better digest because if they are challenged certainly enzymes have multiple effects and said they you know that they can improve the morphology so in other words they can actually partly overcome the negative effects of heat stress not 100% so I think what we should be considering enzyme as a part of the package it's not going to answer everything but what I the point I was making was so certainly digestion is affected but also mechanic once it's absorbed there is synthesis degradation all these things have affected much more than the de addition our internal data indicating that you know this the hits the layers and talking beliefs no because I have the data of the layers somehow they retain amino acid and energy per gram ecwid is higher so that you know so that I mean a calculated down what is the feed intake what is the amino acid intake what is the calorie intake and then activated by the egg weight so somehow like when the bird kept in the open house they retain more calorie they retain more amino acid per gram ecwid yeah that seemed quite interesting is that may be linked to the feed intake per se or C do you think no idea on that one yes and then the last publication I think it was last year showing the same thing for broiler somehow when they keep the broiler in the heat stress the retain amino acid per gram Witkin is higher especially very high for system quite interesting it links to the need for maybe agree that you know as you said before and so on it's may be linked to the oxidative metabolism and that is fine you know that's what thinking that way you know you need the glutathione and then your cysteine is the precursor of gluten probably you need more on that or you know something like that but that's still you know to me the data is not really really you know convinced you know to the point that you know it's again because of the models of that hit stress they are using so make everything is difficult to interpret the data so I think quite a lot of area still to dig into for future research I would say because it's not so clear and we haven't talked about phosphorus find salt because and the hot conditions maybe you're the metabolism is also driven by the ATP by the phosphorus need and so on maybe a professor have it and you have a comment on that not the comment but certainly in ourselves or we are not talking about minerals but minerals also affected in a hot environment especially output in the urine one thing which happens is the urine output is increased and also it becomes more concentrated the concentration of calcium phosphorus some of these electrolytes are concentrated in the urine so so the birds will go into some sort of negative balance not exactly negative balance but the middle retention is very adversely affected in hot temperatures so we need to really revise our nutrition background under these challenging conditions so I appreciate your efforts and our discussion this afternoon and I'm really looking forward for our meeting tomorrow and to see a I'm sure a very exciting presentation and lot of questions raising thank you very much you