[Music] good morning good afternoon good evening to all of you wherever you are ladies and gentlemen welcome to our new live webinar today and I should say also to your TV program fit channel dot online as often as possible we have the opportunity to address some of your concerns from the practical issue to its scientific explanation who is expert from all over the world from science as well from the industry or end-users and I would say do not hesitate to propose also topics for al-fatihah webinars each revenue webinar starts with the introduction on the topic addressing the fundamental issue with the science but also the practical issue with some field representatives and a roundtable will allow you to ask openly questions during the year so with the webinar to our invitees so I remind you you have at any time the possibility to ask questions do not forget also to visit your free channel dot online platform where you will be able to revisit recent events such as the poultry science Association meeting last July in Orlando and it will be shortly on the platform with a video on the oxidative stress recessions you will have also saw videos on the EC conference oukitel seminar held in Bangkok last October so got else international seminar and also you will have the possibility to revisit your live webinar on mid quality organized last October addressing issues on three plus and mid colo stability and I would say thousands who were disappointed not to be able to ask a question during that webinar we have worked hard to solve the technical issue so I hope this time it will work fine and if you want and I can say also if you want to be interviewed or post on the feature under platform do not hesitate to contact us it is our fifth fictional live webinar today and we are pleased to welcome lot of encryption registration people and I just remind you again that you can post any question at any time on the platform and if we have no time to answer to all questions we will answer later on on the fictional mailbox so formulating amino acid beyond building blocks that's it topic of our live webinar today many Congress and seminar have addressed issue around the amino acids beyond building blocks it concerns the billions of protein deposition the muscle development essaouira prediction it could be the role of amino acids on the immunities or amino acids on the gut functioning it can be as a role also of amino acid on appetite and take control or even on the meat quality and carcass quality so there are a lot of scientific progress but how to take into account all those progress in the feed formulations that it could an important point and there is also an important aspect today and we are all concerned by the sustainability of the animal protein production and we want to reduce the nitrogen expression for that reducing the dietary protein content is a nice possibility to reduce the nitrogen equation however as I said before to take into account all those present developments when formulating on dietary - eat eat so I would say sometimes it's a big issue and we will try to discuss today about this issue I'm pleased to welcome to the around the table - well-known scientist and we start with dr. Yap van million from INRA and agar campus waste a train in France as director of the bigges mix research unit which stands for piggles for Physiology environment genetics and animal breeding and I think it's important to consider that not only the animal that we consult also we consider also the animal breeding systems and he has also a lot of expertise on developing models on nutrient metabolism and amino acid metabolism and professor my kid from Arkansas University in USA as an expert on amino acid and also as director of a center of excellence of poultry science and is well-known also on the amine acid recommendations and Amelia's in knowledge and I also a welcome lane Vig Baldus from CAG in on skype as representative of the free user and feed formulation sector because they are at the first line I would say to take into account all we will discussed and all we have worked on to formulation so Len can you precise a little bit more your positions within Cargill my in cargo payments and addiction in Europe which means that I am responsible for all formulation activities across species as well responsible for our laboratory activities then formulation and cargo payments and nutrition doesn't mean just to push on the bottles and send formulas to plants but also to design and I would say create the best formula which meet expectations of of the customer and the customer can at the end be the farmer it can be a female but that's my role in this to coordinate but also train the team members and you know taking care that we deliver what our customers expect welcome lady thank you and I suggest to first focus on defining what do we mean by amino acid requirements or maybe I'm sure that you will address that requirements a issue but at least what do we mean by requirements and I think to start the discussion I think it's important to ask Jane Lane what what were presence requirements for the feet formulator the requirements are always connected to the goal or the customer want to achieve so for example requirement will be different if a customer is going for daily gain or for feed conversion or in broiler production less meat percentage so it's always connected to the goal what the customer what the final user wants to achieve and it also is different between feed mills and completely integrated companies for example because they are judged on different aspects of it it's important time to reconsider that your breakevens the requirements met may be asking yep but what do mean requirements of response of the animals to as a scientist well well to a scientist anything also in practical feed formulation impractically formulation we we express feed values and nutrient requirements they are based on the system you you formulate based on a net energy system or a metabolizable energy system or standardized ileal digestible amino acids the system so that's the the main point we have to decide what system are you going to use because what we want to do is we want to express feed value and an animal requirement on the same level you cannot mix net energy requirement with the metabolizable energy value same thing for amino acids so it is in fact a compromise between an attribute that you can as a property that you can attribute to a diet or to a feed ingredient and a property that you can attribute to an animal and we have to find a compromise doing so so that's very important you cannot make systems systems are have to be unique and established both on the requirement side and on the value side and just as an example to illustrate what we can think of in terms of requirement on the graph you see a response of pigs to the failing to lysine supply in terms of daily gain and what you see here individual dots mean individual animals and I'll just let the audience think about what in their view is the requirement of that animal with the value each Clayton with the variability among animals now in a few you can of course apply statistics to this and then on the next two graphs next to two lines you see two statistical models that can apply to to to look curve and you see that they differ quite extensively and in the way they express a requirement on the red line it's a classical broken line curve analysis where the requirement would be 68% and you can see that as soon as you're below that requirement performance the clients the blue curve is curved in their response and you can see that the requirement is much higher so are we really interested interested in requirements or are we interested in the response to the animal because you can see that below seventy three seventy - how much - how much performance do you lose so is it requirement or is it response that's interesting question and also I'm sure Lane will have some comments on the benefits and economic benefits on on that mic maybe on on that issue we talked about the requirements on the objectives I would say but what about the the model and what about the issue and projects we want absolutely and it's been well said by both Lynn and Yap the the model is indication statistically to give us an idea where the response is occurring what we have to rely on are the production functions of interest what the producer needs to have a spec on because you only have one number in feed formulation and that has to be an economic optimum so I really like the way the conversation is started here today in that we're really not looking at response or a requirement we're looking at what response is needed to give us the economic optimum in that and it varies depending upon if we have the high meat yield versus focusing on feed conversion or calorie conversion so depending upon the bird depending upon the economics we need to take that statistical model and backtrack into feed formulation for a good number it's good point when you show the graph with a different objective and I'm sure that Lane when we talk about objectives as a different feeling from the of a different thing I would say a practical feeling on how to use the amino acids so maybe your lane can you comment a little bit further behind the mic on the objectives and requirements are never I would say aesthetic but they will be adjusted to to the needs of the customers like you mentioned the whole bird production or sales of all birds versus best meats even in counties where whole birds are produced and sold people might have to go to differentiate to deliver a better carcass then the competition is doing and then one aspect of that is breast meat then they are not the breast meat percentage is not measured but still important to to achieve a better quality of all birds by which they can differentiate compared to competition and and and and therefore it it's always it all starts please the discussion with the customer what do they want to achieve where are they judged it can be that they are just judged on the 100 kilo price of defeat then then you use other requirements then if they are judged on feed conversion which is very typical for feed mills who shall feed but integrators who also own the slaughterhouse there the carcass yield or the cost per kilo of production is much more important or the output of the slaughtering plant or so the daily gain might be more important sort in one day earlier more birds per year and the better utilization of the slaughtering house so yeah thanks Elaine so talking about three crayons you have the model importance you have the objectives and the practical utilizations I wanted to also address the question to someone else he's a bit better from me in Ryan in France with in charge of duck nutrition's and mid quality about what is the situation in the duck nutrition regarding amino acid requirements and I did I've realized this interview last week at in Ryan tour so let's listen to what Elizabeth said about harmony acids requirement in in in Ducks so I'm pleased to welcome Elizabeth visor from in Ryan tour who is in charge of waterfowl production and particularly on poultry meat quality issues and regarding the topic about amino acid formulation beyond building blocks I'm quite interested by how we consider in fact Ducks in that perspective of amino acid formulation and my first question would be what are the main difference between broiler and regarding the amino acid well the formulation with amino acid for ducks you must take into account that there are different species and different genotypes of ducks so to produce meat of course so picking Muscovy and the crowd spread between these two species the music and these different species have different growth rate and different body development so you will not have the same requirements regarding the different rearing period so the growing the starting do the starting the growing and finishing periods but of course by now the requirements for the essential amino acids so lysine methionine tryptophan and hernán are well-known for mystics for post type of breeds taken and Moscow and the cross bride yes and we currently formulate in digestible immunised basis and we say in broiler or layer productions what about the situation in in in Turks and do we know the digestibility difference between ducks and and and poultry and broiler I would say so until now the formulation with amino acids you must take into account the total amino acids for ducks you can use the coefficients which have been determined for broiler chickens but there are various studies who showed that these coefficients are lower for ducks by comparison with the broiler chickens well there is now a study a recent study who determined the optimum lies in digestible lysine level 4 starting Android I'd diets but only for the peck index and what about because there are much longer period of of breeding I would say in in Dirk's what about the digestibility for finishing drugs for and zone you see catch-up much more compared to broiler when they are older no no it is always lower the values are always lower than that which have been determined for chicken typically in animal protein production we talk about sustainability and one of the key point is reducing the dietary protein content so trying to formulate with much lower protein diets what is the situation regarding duck nutrition so the decreasing concentration of protein in diets was tested if effect yes so for muscovy ducks during the finishing periods it was shown that it was possible to decrease the protein content from 15 to 12 point four percent of course by keeping the concentration of essential amino acids according to the requirements of the ex and recently we also found a study who showed that during the growing period for peck index so that means between 14 to 35 days of age it was also possible to decrease the protein content in the diet from 70% 17 percent to fifty fifty percent fifty point four F I think but also by keeping the the amino acid yes not not although an amino acid with the same concentration for the different diets what do you think about your formulation taking into account additional benefits of immunity beyond their requirement for grows or for prediction find zones like when we talk about sulfur amino acid and antioxidant capacities or training an immune capacity and so on how do you think we should take into account these additional benefits I would say in amino acid formulation the only parameter parameter which was taken into account in these studies on amino acids was the body composition so mainly the fatness and meat yield but the effects of the different levels of amino acids in the diet did not investigated the effects on the meat quality working on drugs in fact you were I would say in Europe quite a lot of the production but also in China or Asia and what are the main difference between with a European type of production and the Asian type of prediction by now I think that in Europe the breeders have more developed ducks with high body weight and high meat yield because we cut we a lot the carcasses and consumers really want to have quite a high mathilde but when you go to Asia people use the carcasses the wall carcasses to prepare the famous roasted PEC index and they they want to have they do not take so much into account the materials they really want to have a skin with a lot of super Kittanning was fat in order to have a crispy taste yes yes crispy skin when it is roasted so it's quite a big difference on and do they consider the immunity nutrition the same oh yes yes yes of course particularly for the page index which are now slaughtered at very early age between 35 42 days of age so they index the problem is that the breast meat is going to develop very late during the development of the world body development but for the a.cian consumers what is interesting is to have really this skin and the business fat fat fat carcasses so now with the the lines they have selected for very high growth rate they don't take into account so much the press material as you can have in Europe ok and last question maybe and typically for French people I would say we talk about you know the foie gras fatty liver what is the requirement when we talk about amino acids and this type of lipid deposition everything I will say that the period which is quite sensitive is during the restriction phase just before the preparation to overfeeding phase so in the during this restriction period you have to be careful with the amino acid providing in the diet ok thank you very much Elizabeth [Music] so looking at another species on those objectives and requirements like the Turks with the composition caucus composition fat fatty liver and so on is quite interesting but might maybe after the modern after the objective the carcass objective and so on what about the effect on the genotype effect of age and so on on the amino acid requirement sure we've been looking at valine needs and we focused on the Cobb female bird before we embarked in some of these studies the first thing we had to do was look at the literature and we standardized some what the the table that's presented will show the different valine to the lysine responses in male Brewers only now we took the liberty to take all of the literature and some of which did not look at ideal protein concepts they looked at maximal valine responses so you have to be careful in how you interpret that but we expressed everything back to digestible level and then we're I showed at the lysine which could underestimate some of those responses for valine but it gives you a apples to apples comparison of the literature and there are a few studies that are below and above what we consider say in the low seventies to below that in the upper upper 70s to the 80s but for the most part our experimentation is going to run from low 70s to upper 70s which gives you a pretty good response curve as we discussed earlier to try and pinpoint the valine responses in some of the past research that we did the footnotes in the work by Thornton she did her complete master's thesis on valine needs and a growing ruler and the first response was down towards the 70 which was statistically the highest response we got and we got no quadratic responses after that but only linear so we have the bottom to the top and and there's some variation there so particularly with this amino acid we still have a lot to learn and we're currently investigating that at the University of Arkansas I think it's interesting to look at the amino acid requirement and what about the relationship with the composition of the tissue the composition the amino acids which are deposited in fact yeah yeah these are basically the building blocks of protein and when we think about animal protein we typically think of it's one protein but there are many many proteins different proteins in the animal and on the slide you see the composition of different proteins for the six amino acids that we have that are most limiting and most diets and you can see that the for instance muscle has a specific composition but hair and feathers have a completely different composition especially in terms of lysine much lower in lysine and very high in cysteine and dodging secretions typically a rather low compared to to muscle so so they have different compositions what you also have to take into into account the the way these proteins are being built and rebuilt and renewed differs for instance protein turnover is very high for four from you scenes and an intestinal proteins where it is much lower in muscle and of course virtually in a inexistent in hair and you lose hair and feathers but you don't renew them once they are once they are made so we have to take into account that there's not one animal protein one and and even in muscle if you look at muscle composition muscle is composed of many proteins mysoline acting's are acting are the most important one and you can see that also myosin and actin don't have very different compositions and the there's not a protein collagen which is can be quite important in animal production it has very low in these six amino acids so the way the animal is depositing amino acids well is it depositing Muslim with myosin actin or is it depositing carnitine collagen and if we have a limiting supply of an amino acid what protein will he deposit what will come first will the animal make priorities it goes back to the objective in fact depending on the type of muscle you are targeting obviously maybe the myosin actin the ratio is not the same and maybe the needs of amino acid would be different absolutely and in to go further a little bit on on determining requirements we can determine requirements based on an empirical approach where we look at some response criterion average daily gain profit through an amino acid we can also have a look at the many wasted requirements using a factorial approach where basically we want to decompose all the elements of the requirement and on the slides you see a decomposition of amino acid requirements based on the diet and part of it is ingestible part of it is being accounted for a specific and not endogenous losses but if we base our system on the standardized ileal digestible system we have to account for the fact that the animal has to make basal and obvious amino acids there's some loss for maintenance and then there's an available availability available amino acid supply and even if that available amino acid supply would be 100 units the animal will never ever deposit 100 units of that amino acid there's always a maximum efficiency or a minimum catabolism and that's will differ between amino acids points that difference between amino acids because they are used for different functions they are 'men different turnover in the turnover of different proteins and in the next slide I have an example a numerical example of the requirement of a given animal wing of a pig 50 kilogram pig and you see some some some numerical values over there and for those interests they can reconstruct the graph that you see on the right hand side but you can see that basically fortunately the position is the largest part of the requirement but there's still a large gray part that's what we're looking for but you see it is a large gray part which is the cult of sometimes the inevitable catabolism of amino acids which can range anywhere between sometimes some people say for license for instance it can range between 20% and 40% so what makes up that inevitable catabolism and can we adjust that can we manipulate that because that is all the the lysine or the methionine that is not deposited but that contributes to the requirement of the animal and in the next slide we show you just as a slide of because these things change over time the animal changes its protein to position over time but we typically also change the diet supply over time but not in the same way as we do as the animal does and this slide you see the change in lice requirement over time when it is vented to face feeding program and the green area that you see in the curve is basically the excess supply of that amino acid maybe should we change the diet just twice but should we change it three times four times or multiple times so we have to take into account at different aspects of requirements and especially with respect to the to the beyond the building blocks the gray area especially the beyond the building blocks because these animals require these amino acids but then eventually lost they are not deposited yeah so it's important to adjust these requirements according to to time and so that's complexify a little bit more than a story because we talked about model we talked about objective we talked about individual variation but also in fact on adjusting on during the growth phase and that is a video big issues