[Music] so good afternoon gentlemen and I'm really pleased to welcome so many hi brain and experts around the table and I will start with Professor Rashad Uchitel from Ghent University well-known veterinary specialist and dr. Furi purnama from jaffa complete in indonesia and professor minggaang shocked with back now at the university of new england in a new position I would say to simplify like a vice president but he will explain better of tomorrow exactly what is his new function and you say that tomorrow we have a seminar focusing on rearing birds under hot conditions and I added at that time when I set up the title two dots to say a challenge and I think it's a real challenge but I would say it's already a challenge to real birth today but on the hot condition it's even worse and I have I'm thinking to address one question for this discussion group is a developing alternative to antibiotics on the hot conditions how what does that mean hot conditions when we look at gutters when you look at alternatives to antibiotics reducing medications so who wants to start first may be Risha well tomorrow I will put up a slide you know like summarizing in one slide the different important findings with respect to gut health and under hot conditions in what is you know like the key issues in literature but in in my opinion there's this one very critical issue and that is the the oxidative stress and I think oxidative stress has been always a key issue with respect to muscle and with respect to metabolism but it's it's a key issue even more so at the level of the intestinal tract and because of oxidative stress in to the epithelial cells one of the major issues that comes out of oxidative stress is like the main of the energy balance of the epithelial cell which influences the tightness of the tight junctions so in in my opinion this is the key issue which we are looking at when you're looking at effects on intestinal health under under heat stress conditions that you end up with a an issue which is there without eat stress already but which is much more pronounced I think when there's heat stress present and maybe minyan when we talk about this intestinal woodsy mucosa and the challenging effect what about the nutrients arriving and maybe depending on the type of feed stuff we can have and so on and the digestible level and so on what could be the effect on the on that it's also challenging in fact they've got integrity and they get functioning yeah thank you very much P Andrew Gordon heat conditions I think we have a number of challenges the first challenge is how you actually guarantee normal feed intake in votes they already under challenge on top of that you actually have reduced feed intake so that means there's already an imbalance in terms of nutrients reaching the gut and providing energy protein amino acid micronutrients so that extra stress will come out of heat stress so there's one of the issues and on top of that you also have got conditions that will change and I have chained in ionic strength and you actually have changed and got microflora composition so that will add another layer of complexity to heat conditions so feeding Birds on the heat conditions at the best of time is difficult and if he actually had subclavian a suboptimal feed intake nutrient intake they really exacerbate his stress it's a big issue so looking back at the field and to say okay what should I do now dr. Furi and obviously we talked already about it stressed but friggin our ding the you know the big challenge you are facing today removing antibiotic cross promote offend zones and reducing the medications and taking taking into account you know the problem of feeding takes the problem of oxidative stress as I get leaven how can you manage all of that okay before I get into the point I will to make I am going to make everything worsen why because if you are in the developing country like Indonesia you have already hit stress but on top of that the piyo security is very bad so there you are you have a leaky gut your cut integrity is deteriorating and then you pull out your HCP you pull out your anti [ __ ] see you know on top of the heat stress so me everything is worse so that's the situation now because / 1/4 of January this year I cannot use antibiotic as an HCP and the usage of anti coxy both for the chemical or ionophore are controlled by the government so I will just give you a picture how hard it is you know you know it have an impact on the poultry poultry production in in in Indonesia especially in the equatorial like Thailand and things like that probably you know they will experience the same thing so you know it's just like you know it's just like you know a palm you know being throw up you know because they're you know because we have the heat stress most of most of them it's open houses because the lack of the capital but not they're pulling of this to track that I used to use you know to offer come partly the better effect of the heat stress in fact his Tracy's not only part of the stress exact putting even more stressors anymore livin minyan you want to do it yeah I just want to try it I think it's very very difficult and you had this tool called antibiotics actually removing a lot of this issues and subclinical challenges contamination from feed and also be sure sir you know it rest when you have any buttocks subtly when you move them so got in tropical conditions you have the feed storage is probably not very good moisture levels high the contamination by microorganisms for your feed ingredients would be high as well so actually feeding these sort of ingredients to your feed to your birds which were housed in probably not a very good housing conditions either so here feed intake issue one any of contamination aidid contamination you know may be other soft clinical conditions so there are the challenge will be enormous more in more challenging more my challenge also to to find solution to find how to to compete i would say or to compensate with the ban of the antibiotics and medications so should we really look at you know the different solution depending on the country and via mental conditions even if you have not found everything yet well of course I fully agree that the challenges are enormous II its but I also I'm a very positive thinker you know I'm I believe in the future so I think there are a number of positive and potential alternatives you know like available partly today and that will become available in the next couple of years that will definitely help us and and I think we are sort of in a position now well I want to come back to you know to the European situation because that's what I'm familiar with you know when they when the EU decided from one day to the other to stop the use of antimicrobial growth promoters in 2006 everybody told us this is the end of to production in Europe simply that's the end of it and it turned out that it is possible to do without and I think in the meantime we have had 12 years of experience where we can build on and and which has helped us to like not only cope with the situation but also give new perspectives and I've truly believe that the solutions will come but this is a transition period which is extremely difficult I think and in looking at the solution should we focus more on some part of the mode of action I would say for instance you talked about inflammation immune system get integrated junction find zone should we look at solution directed on some of these mechanism I would say more instead of looking at just okay I want to replace antibiotic I want to have a global solution to be honest to be honest I think life has been easy without the and with the anti microbial growth promoters because we were covering up a number of things we were covering up like you know the shifts in the microbiome which have come along with the continuous selection for improved feed conversion ratio and improved weight game and of course without the antimicrobial growth promoters you need to really understand what is going on in the birds to decide in your particular position what is the best strategy under your conditions so we are looking more with indicators or biomarkers of the situation to be more precise on way there is an issue so maybe your idea on that minion I think it's very interesting at point Richard you are making is that you know you can look at the birds look at your own conditions and how you actually adapt to the particular conditions we have to Alou cat the birds in the way that we feed the birds and there's an important area I'm going to talk about intermittent feeding for example birds in the wild sexually originated from this part of the world you know the red jungle fowl and when it evolved in the past it used to eat when the weather when the day became cooler and the rest when it's very hot but of course we have selected birds over the years so that we feed them continuously you know 23 hours so 18 hours at least 23 hours in one hour darkness so but if we actually look at the way that the birds were so we exceed them intermittently and during a cooler period give them more feed so that will condition a gut condition a gut microflora in a way that bill will develop a better immunity immunity better resilience in this in hot environment on top of that if we actually use various feed additives for example and we actually encourage crop holding more gizzard development in a more for gut activity so that the acidity of the four gar will increase as you actually have more and more feed is stored and they because it intermittent feeding they will eat you know then wait until a mixed meal then you're stimulated and the bigger crop crop holding will increase then gizzard grinding will increase gives it pH will go down in a crop here it will go down so you're already conditioning them so that from the beginning they are starting to have more acidic more buffered digester coming into the gut which roles a mechanically process on top of that if you had enzymes for instance or even probiotics you give them more time to ferment more time to have it action and foregut front part of the gut if some action happens right at the end you know if the birds that's already passed in tests on some of the damages may have already occurred in a full front part of the gut then you may not actually take full advantage of what you're trying to achieve so in practice you think dr. Furi that it's possible and in fact this conditioning a preparation of the animal early enough that it will be more adapted after so conditioning I would say when I say conditioning not acclamation too hot stress and so and so on but more conditioning on the feed on the substrate arriving at the end of the intestine and so on okay let me get back to that but I would like to comment like this do we really believe that when we solve a non nutritional problem through nutrition cause Weis that's my question because like the heat stress combined with the HCP and coxy to start burning that's it's very very strong heat yes now because there is nothing we can do we have to do something so that the loss is smaller but when I get that big gain you know with that cause is that still Weis or not that's number one number two back to your question I think it is really neat because now we are people talking about early terminal conditioning at early age that is very neat why because thence that is cause wise that is a it is a very very very low the cause and if I could do it at at the hats a little I follow so the small farmer don't have to do it that would be perfect you see I keep thinking about it you know do I have to solve non nutritional problem through nutrition because it's always cost me fine it will cost me no problem but how much do I get it back it's a good it's a good point it's a very inventive see we often use nutrition approach to say okay it's a one way of the solution we don't say under hot conditions the solution is nutritional but at least you try to better manageable better manage your climate as a bird level and so on but the only thing very often it's easy to to spray it in the different farms and so on it's frozen nutrition but maybe you're rich I'll you I'll comment on that maybe we should not be too concentrated on nutrition well I fully agree of course it's it's a combination of things and there's these management things that management's measures that need to be taken both at the farm and and in the hatchery and indeed you probably came across the work of Eddie Dakota who who worked on you know no programming birds and with the thyroid hormone and the the effect on you know tolerance to heat during during you know the incubation periods so that's definitely a way that will help but I suppose that you need a combination of different measures it's clear that that also from the from you know from the nutrition side something will have to be done when you take out the antimicrobial growth promoters yeah you are going to talk about that and we have already talked about I would see feeding the birds of the bugs and maybe it's an important issue to consider not only animals the chicken is in terms of energy amino acid and so on but also on the substrate required by the microbiota to be to develop correctly to plays its role so maybe a minyan you have an idea about that well talk to various write about it I think there are many costs but you know it's rich said this particularly she was already dumped on us you said it was like a bomb dropped on you suddenly said okay today you're using any bollocks tomorrow you can't use it so how are you gonna deal with it well feed is definitely one of the large parts of the equation management and housing husbandry there are many many issues in there so we are obviously talking about feed here so one of the things that you're talking about now what just said is that how you going to condition the birds through feed or management or hatcheries so that the birds will be able to deal with hot conditions well and eat the feed and digestive nutrients and then develop resilience to various diseases and at the end of the day we still need to have a poultry production we need to have chicken the world cannot go on without having chicken that's it's an extremely important protein source you know yeah and it's probably the largest eggs and chicken combined together and make us protein right into the largest animal protein source for human consumption and it's also chicken is it's very low on global warming potential yeah yeah and you can use a small space to produce a lot of chicken less water everything is going for it so we need to we need to find solutions to help our anymore yes okay now I'll just give you a picture the the broiler production in Indonesia whatever the the poultry for example broiler if we could close the house you know I could get the performance of European index for 6450 easily when you you you you close the house so the problem in developing country is that we don't have enough capital but that's the problem yeah that maybe even some little Marines here is the scarcity of the electricity closing the up modifying the open house to become a simple closed house it's not custom as 15 US dollars per square meter but the Pecos is getting the electricity that's the problem so that's why in our company now what we do is we call it a week we invite some financing company the bank or whatever sit down together between the feedmill the integrator and the bank and also the farmer so you know you know the capital will be covered by the by the finance company and then we do the contract farming with them that's I think that's the easiest to go remember I could get four hundred and fifty four hundred and eighty reuler index easily at 35 days mixxx hmm of course if he actually house the birds in an air-conditioned has a world ventilated house no longer a challenge he's stressed challenge anymore the same old world over so I think what we are discussing now is totally agree with you I think they would be the best solution so if you tunnel ventilate the ships sister on every way then it's a salt sustainability would that be the most sustainable way in fact to produce like in a salmon salmon Network on countries I would say or is it better to help the animal to face the issue of the hot conditions and the hot and humid conditions and so on well that's an interesting interesting question I'm a large majority the farmers in Indonesia or some other countries they will not be able to get the financing they will not be able to close the housing etc otherwise you know feed formulation is more or less the same either in Europe Australia or Indonesia you're as good as any other nutritionist in world and producing feed but environment the macro-environment is the issue that we're talking about so if you remove the housing conditions exposing birds to his stress then how can we alleviate the impact of his stress on birds you know through it's very interesting question yeah yeah do you think to go back to the looking at reducing the medication and so on do you think that the ban of antibiotic in these countries now you know more and more worldwide and particularly not conditions is more challenging than in our condition because as you said in Europe it was it appeared impossible years ago and now people say okay that's a normal life and we we are able to compete or to project to produce do you think that it's a bigger challenge or as optimistic you are we will find a solution I can't talk about the economical aspects or you know the costs for fighters either type of solution but it's it's definitely the case that there are still ways to you know to and use additives in feed that that help and that support the burden in in like tolerating heat stress that's that's clear whether or not that's economically the most attractive road to go you are the person to give us the answer I suppose so if you want to make me be a message to conclude this little discussion because I think it's very interesting because now we are even going further to say okay how should we produce chicken and I still do believe that we have to find a way because this will take a time to convert that open house to become a closed house you know take a time but you know when we are taking that time you know they are losing the performance so we have to thing that's we have to do something so what I'm trying to say is if I put $1.00 in it how much can I get it back as long as I get a pass over there so that mean it's ok I'm not dreaming that it's going to resolve the problem completely because almost you know hope yes one team probably we will you know through a genetic selection with a naked neck and then you know terminal conditioning whatever it is you know so yes I do believe you know as long as that will give us a positive a net positive value then we could do it because the way I calculated it like this if an open house they are checked in at six or seven times a year every bird they lost about 150 grams and then a loss of a 7-point of FCR if I could just collect it that money that probably enough to close the house so at least there is different way to help the birds to to grow and to I would say produce more protein and so on so it will not be only nutrition it will not be only that I would say it will be your management nutrition veterinary aspects and trying to do deliveries everything if anyone has one word to say for the future what do you expect for the future there are smart people you'll find a solution if that idea of thermal conditioning is working for example is giving as a positive that's the best way to go you will see tomorrow I think we have a good presentation because then if we could do it in the head sorry for example you know you just wanna pull it the hatchery and then you know remember the farmer in Indonesia is less educated you know it's very lowly you can concentrate for me you know okay this is a you know it just lets the feedmill let the praetor twig instead of the farmer doing it and then this is just simply you know increasing the temperature at the 40s or you know add to this before heads or whatever it is those kind of thing that you know I could see that it will be more helpful excited tomorrow's a lady and cannot present things of topic on early conditioning and so on we'd be excited to see that some people from the field say that it's possible to use it because what the we're often facing in universities and so on is people say yes it's nice you know you know the mechanism and so on but how to make in practice but if you say if it effectively adds a actually you can manipulate and that could be spread more easily than changing at the farm that were big so I would say with this little world I think we can close the debate this afternoon but I'm sure it's just starting the debate for tomorrow thank you very much [Music]