[Music] so welcome to our to Professor exam professor from y9 we did a CT and from Purdue University professor Marcus Collins cotton professor lady Adira and I'm really pleased to have you two on the table of Finland and particularly I would say Marcus because you're going to receive a nicer welder tonight so I think it's a it's recognize also the excellent work you did on phosphorus and moreover I would say on the monogastric nutrition and I think it's important and I know like he also received so well some years ago so I think you are to recognize expense on on animal nutrition and you were the important person on the session on Tuesday afternoon at the PSC conference on phosphorus and metabolism requirements methodology and so and I would like to ask you to summarize to give the highlights of your presentations and to take a message we need to keep in mind after this excellent two presentations so maybe we can start with you at the 2017 poetry Science Association symposium on phosphorus utilization evaluation for poultry the highlights were from four speakers and I led up a presentation by providing evidence on why we need to move towards a digestible phosphorus system and this was followed by Marcus Grodi hot Scott who presented some of the challenges that are involved in getting a standardized assay for phosphorus digestibility in feed ingredients on the court Perryman came in and addressed the relevance of calcium sources calcium concentration to also develop in a standardized ileal digestible system for my bedford rondalee table i presented some of his thoughts on evaluating exogenous fight aces in a digestible phosphorus assay so one of the very important objectives of that particular symposium was to continue our efforts towards sensitizing the poultry nutrition research community the poultry industry for moving away from non fighting phosphorus relative available for us towards a digestible energy system and so when I started it off I introduced some sections whereby non-fighting phosphorus that is of organic origin okay we can get more digestible phosphorus because the fighters phosphorus component is digestible by potent and then I also presented you know data from in the literature on non phytate phosphor status of inorganic origin that is not totally digested so it's nebulous to use non phytate phosphorus because on one hand some phytate phosphorus is digestible by poultry and then on the other hand some non fighted for a status of inorganic origin is not digested and then I went on to talk about the issue of relative available phosphorus and how that is dependent on the reference source and then the response criteria that you used and then we then went on to give examples in soil and in poultry as to the difference between the total tract digestible phosphorus and elia digestible phosphorus in poultry which can be quite different whereas in swine Ilia digestible phosphorus and total tract the phosphorus is not different so essentially in sewing we can use total tract digestible phosphorus as a measure of phosphorus utilization by sewing whereas in poultry we need to be aware that we use ileal digestible phosphorus and that we tend to use Ilia digestible phosphorus a critical digestible phosphorus interchangeably in important and then we went on to Harmony high that the industry needs to get away from non phytate phosphorus as a currency of phosphorus utilization relative and enable phosphorus as a currency of phosphorus utilization towards ileal digestible phosphorus because that ileal digestible phosphorus it would be more additive in diet formulation not only will it be more additive it's going to give us an idea of the phosphorus that is excreted into the miner by poultry and that will give us a better better handle on some of the environmental concerns that are involved in production practices important that's a good big evolution in fact on the emitter area no consensus on digestible and particularly ileal digestible but it's a challenge and I know that Marcus you introduced the work done by the European group and I think you end up with some interesting aspects in questions 62b so yes but before I talk about that I would but I mean we were challenged in the discussion in the pennant discussion that we had after our presentations why we are proposing this new system although everything works quite well currently in the industry with which however which whatever defined system of available phosphorus or nonfat phosphorus and I mean that's that's a fair argument I mean you can always say it works well so we don't need to change but the situation simply is that all the systems that are in use worldwide only work right now because we have implemented relatively high relatively high safety margins in our recommendations so the differences that we have in the digestibility of different phosphorus sources simply are irrelevant because you are on a very high level of supply and that is something that worked in the past and currently works but it's definitely not a model for the future where we have to face a situation of extremely limited global phosphate resources on one hand and the environmental pressure on the other hand and that might at present be a bigger problem in some places in Europe than it currently is in the US but it probably will have become a problem worldwide so that probably was a reason why I have been invited to talk a little bit more about the European you on the story and in fact I mean I could start my presentation in saying that I 100% agree with what dr. oz said in regard to all the disadvantages in using the digestible phosphorus system and I started reporting from their work that the nutrition group of the European Federation of the world portal Science Association did in compiling a standard protocol for the determination of digestible phosphorus in broadness that was in 2013 a group of scientists sets together and developed this protocol to the best of knowledge that was available at that time and I gave a few a few information about this protocol but I also stated that in the past three or four years since this protocol has been published we learnt a lot additionally about further challenges in the context of standardized phosphorus digestibility determination and I reported the results of an international phosphorus digestibility ring test that we published showing that although we tried the best to standardize across 17 institutions in Europe and in North America we found quite substantial variation and the results of phosphorus digestibility showing that we have to work on the further refinement of the protocol and at the last part of my presentation I addressed that this is probably related to the multiple interactions that we have in a diet between phytate break down and release of phosphate from phytate to sum that up there is there is still a lot of work to do in regard to refinement of a standard protocol but we are in a very good way towards that and the goal is that we really will end up with a digestible phosphorus system for poultry that can be used more or less worldwide in order to make results comparable in the future because I mean the industry in the poultry sector is to a large extent a global industry working with similar animal genetics of course specific feed ingredients in different parts of the world but there is no need for separate systems it only cost confusion in communication and also an application and you see that the world community will move in that direction easily you know you will still have to convince people to have the common system worldwide and really to more care about the value of the fixed value of the product instead of the methodology and so with that that is certainly our hope otherwise we will not be putting up you know this series of symposia to sensitize the whole community in terms of the industry and the research community for moving towards this system and that is certainly a hope because as we've indicated there is a lot of advantage to that when you start a new system you know there are things along the way and then you work out those kinks and as you know each lab looks at some of the factors that are responsible for that wide variation we will be able to adjust modify revise that you know protocol and that as a system we hope would be out you know we'll be adopted worldwide Mako's and I we have experience with another neutral amino acid and we have been able to get most of the research community that look sorry yeah that looks at you know standardized amino acid digestibility amino acid digestibility to use a relatively common standard protocol and we hope that with phosphorus is not going to be any different mysticum is a fact that we owe you you bet we are optimistic we go with that enthusiasm that optimism that as time goes on we're going to be able to resolve most of the kinks and area it is as it often is in this kind of transformation processes pair entree I mean as soon as pressure comes up from outside yeah to the community by for economic reasons or for legislation or whatever people intensify their thinking about the options they have and that is the point where we say well we have the good arguments to think about you dimension safety margin for instance and the objective is to reduce and to optimize materials and figure nation and so in your mind what is the range of safety magic people are using on the phosphorus is that different from one country to the other or from one user - yeah well I'm not so sure about about exact figures but it wouldn't surprise me when we have safety margins to a different extent in different countries in Elly depending on the city and regulations of I implemented and so on but but it's also a difference probably between different production systems or different categories of words we talked about in my opinion the highest excess we currently work with us in laying hands but I think we also have room for fine-tuning of the requirement values for the photo growing boards for the products and particularly turkeys heavy turkeys yeah yeah and I will add to that that I'm not familiar with the numbers but considering the differences in the type of ingredients that are used across the world I will imagine that those safety margins are going to be different from one country today to the other because the food resources that go into poultry diets they are going to be slightly different from one country to the other and the animal genetics density of you know production and even those factors are going to affect that and because of the differences from one country to the other my assumption is that those safety margins are going to be slightly different from one country to the other and today you think that the end users I would say really understanding the phytate level you know Co phosphorus and and fight and different quality of the source of phosphates and different content of phytates they are well away all bands are because it's not often measured so it's more book values and so on so do you think that we should further develop measurement to get a good clarification of the fight that content for its derivation and so on what most certainly most certainly and that is how we are going to you know take baby steps and make progress because enzymes are being used only by the world alright I'm there to adequately use enzymes you have to be aware of the substrate for that enzyme to do what it's supposed to do and there so in that regard I'm aware that you know there are some companies you know measuring fighting levels in feed ingredients and providing that information so it's not going to be too long down the road like we have for nitrogen or protein like we have for you know other nutrients in field that that fight rate is going to become you know I really pursue that when we add enzymes to diet we will have a reasonable idea of the substrate that is available and be able to target the concentration of enzymes that we add to the diet and there so that you know those substrate are available for the enzymes to do what they're supposed to do am i their honor that people perhaps are aware of the differences in the composition fat content and so on in different feed raw materials but what probably it's not clear at the moment is that we have a very high variation between different batches of the same feed wrong with you yeah and that is something that that probably is not currently considered in a way that it should be considered this in my seven seasons of fight terrorists maybe it's not very big the fight that we have just we just just talked about the fact that you were analytical values at this stage and I mean that that probably depends on the development of further analytical or estimation tools that allow for a prediction of this of this feed constituents in the routine an application but but I think that's that shouldn't be a problem per se because that is in use for other nutrients anyway so just needs to be extended with good calibrations for yeah Hanuman eternal optimist in that regard because with advances in technology you know there are and I are for looking at some need nutrients and it's not you know in the distant future it's not going to be a hard or if you know there are high on IR procedures developed to pick up the fight that fight that content of ingredients that's going into you know into the diets and would be able to better target you know when we talk about phytase we talk about degradation in the fight it and liberation of the phosphate up to the eventually to zagreas eaten when you talk about NSPS when senior members of the top former professor choked in the main basavanna and say you need also to degrade but not maybe not to the complete extended you know to be sure that you have some substrate or a cossack right they force a good microbiota in the case of 4-straight phytate and so on do you think that you will need to degrade everything or maybe the animal is requiring some intermediate ip's [Music] extremely interesting question I can't answer answer that at the moment I don't know whether you can but it is I mean it's it has been shown in some studies that in not at all as the as the end product that may have certain metabolic effects I'm not sure whether it is also the case for for lower IP but yeah whether there are you know some no IPS does that required metabolically sometimes we took that idea yeah yeah but what what is known is that there are those are combined phosphatases okay that take IP 1 IP 2 and they're released in mind Osito and we've talked about - it all over the years relative to some of their metabolic roles and whether that operates globally in poetry or and so on still remains to be determined but we know that - it all is released it gets into the bloodstream may have some you know effects on the muscle they may have some effects in the liver it may have some effects and they are the adipose tissue and in the fish world the good thing is supply you know in versatile and I don't know how you know whether that's going to be many families yeah but what we we are we have you know all those general metabolic you know steps so as a research you know progresses you will be able to at least you know dealing it and then provide more information it's going to advance our knowledge of that area you started your question with a possible interaction between NSP breakdown and and microbial activity and so on and I mean that again is a field that is totally unexplored at the moment but but what we know is that there is a certain fraction of the microbial community in the gut that is able to produce phytase and to degrade fight that because what we often see is even in diets that do not contain any phytase we do have substantial further breakdown in the intestinal tract at the broiler so there is something going on and what what is possible is that when you produce certain oligosaccharides that are beneficial for certain bacteria that can produce phytase you may get this interaction between these couple have reflections and fight a breakdown so yes it is possible but it's at the moment just a theory yeah I'm there I will add to that by indicating some of what we know are some of you know what needs to be known as we use a lot of these enzymes especially the you know carbohydrates is what is important to know as we use some of these carbohydrates is is that what happens in the various section of the gastrointestinal tract so as we add those carbohydrates is we should have a pretty good idea which is which we don't know right now in the crop preventer colors is that usually do genomic most pretty fast so it's very difficult to collect a lot of digestive from the do you know what happens in the did you know what happens in the ileum and so as we add these enzymes to died it's very important to have information on the residual activity of some of these enzymes in the various sections of the cast that's natural because as we know these enzymes have different pH object so where they're going to act in those sections of the gastrointestinal tract we need to even be aware on how the formation on the residual activity are not only the residual activity of the enzyme we need to have information on some of the substrate and they those substrate you know especially those complex carbohydrates not only the chemical structure but the physical structure because that understanding that will give us an impetus that okay in this section of the gastrointestinal tract there is this residual activity remaining for that particular substrate yeah but and this is the substrate is the physical structure is the chemical structure what can we do within that section of the gastrointestinal tract to modify the enzyme I'd you know one enzyme or the other to you know get more of the substrate that otherwise available so you are more thinking about a global understanding of the substrate and the global in fact enzyme approach to say okay I need several type of enzyme to address your substrate yes and in fact I need to think globally to get after the full value of the exactly potential the solution exactly and just to to country you think that maybe in the future we use so efficiently to fight it and we to fight whatever we have in the feed that we will not need any more additional I would say inorganic phosphorus in the diet's could we see more and more very poor say okay and I guess we get that depends on the species performance we talk about I think that we will still have situations in the future where we definitely need to add inorganic phosphates to some extent but I mean we already know that in swine production we can can easily go without any supplementation from a certain age period onwards as long as you have filed a supplemental but yes I mean in in braless it has repeatedly been shown that with this higher doses of five to five days you can increase fight Obrecht on up to 90% so I mean there is a considerable amount of phosphate released from that party what some room for reduction so just in the if you will to conclude what is your view on the future the next step we should do on that phosphorus if I find him in the enzyme area your so getting back to what we started with I think we what we what we now need to work on is a coordinated activity in phosphorus digestibility research clarifying the open points in regard to a standard protocol then we find the already existing protocol and then use it worldwide of feed raw material a variation and compile the tables and then use the digestible phosphorus system yeah I know we'll add to that that you know once we have that information then a lot of the enzymes that are produced we should not you know put the cart before the host then a lot of the enzymes that I use then we can put those enzymes on top of those ingredients and look at what the release is so that we can have a better handle that when I add this amount of enzyme this is what I'm going to get in terms of release so those would be the next step after we've worked out all the kinks you know in a standardized protocol okay thank you very much thank you for your time meet you again in this video yeah thank you okay thank you [Music]