[Music] so good morning Rachel Uchitel and philippe van Emerson I'm really pleased to welcome you here at Food Channel and I think it's a great pleasure to see you also during this important nutrition conference because you are maybe you're on the other part of the nutrition I would say you're talking about how to feed the microbiota how to benefit for a good feeding of the microbiota I would like to to ask you to both of you the first patient and we discussed earlier on but that's a intestinal integrity and intestinal buyer a lot of people are considering the intestine wall as a buyer you know but that is maybe antagonistic to absorption to benefit for the animal could you post comment on that maybe Rick you start well maybe I can start by you know the the concept is that the intestinal lumen is actually part of the outside world yeah and so that is the place where the outside world is in closest contact with the bloodstream which means that it gives the impression that there should be a strong barrier there but that is absolutely not the case because if there is a strong barrier it means that you would have less capacity of you know absorbing nutrients so that it's all about how does the does the organ distinguish between what is nutritional and what is beneficial and what could be harmful and it is not based on a true barrier but it's based on the integrity of the intestinal epithelium which is actually to do with the tight junctions between the epithelial cells so anything that passes through the cells are nutrients because it's taken up by receptors and given passed into the bloodstream again by receptors which means that the cell is selecting what is taking up yeah when and the tight junctions between the cells have to make sure that nothing harmful can pass through and that means that as long as the tight junctions are intact everything is functioning well but you must realize that under vendor say under field conditions one damaging factor which is always present is coccidiosis and when the Amira's multiplying it is at each step of its multiplication that is each a Miriah is killing one epithelial cell when one epithelial cell is killed there is a gap between the two neighboring epithelial cells and that means that bacteria can pass through and plasma you know host proteins can pass into the lumen and so what we want is actually to repair this gap as quickly as possible and that is what a number of feed additives can do they can help repair these gaps because the the intestinal epithelium has an almost unlimited capacity of repair but that needs to be stimulated and when you're stimulated you can you can do that and but what you cannot do is to make the epithelium less susceptible because the epithelium is by definition susceptible to lots and lots of different knocks to say yeah it has to be said give up so maybe Philippe you you want to add comments on these by intestinal well I think that all the quite a complete story the only thing that I maybe can comment is that is the structures that Rick was talking about these tight junctions and all the molecules that connect epithelial cells with each other that this is really something that can be influenced by what is being produced in the intestinal lumen by all the bacteria that was sitting there and of course what a buck this bacteria produces is very highly influenced by the diet and by certain substrates that are provided to the bacteria there and of course probably the most important example of this the short chain fatty-acids in which the the propagates but especially the birth rates have an effect on just expression of this intercellular 1214 lettings lectures and that's something that probably most people do not take too much into account actually with some quite easy dietary strategies you can influence this this integrity without affecting absorption whatever I mean don't worry in fact just increasing improving or decreasing energy loss because that makes let's in fact what happens when you have these intercellular junctions that are destroyed or loosened then of course you have quite a lot of energy loss a lot of nutrients that leak out of the gut wall another component that can go in and acting in an inflammatory way so that's something that can be steered quite well using tired you took yesterday about the fibers you took about adding some wheat bran for instance a a small percentage one percent wheat bran different particle size and so on so today you think that it's a good min to help the intestine intestine to a better function and and what should be the objective for the nutritionist you know to go on you know more even more fibers specific particle size and yeah I think it is often considered that that fiber or indigestible polysaccharides are not I'm not too beneficial of course because it's belief that they are not well they're not digest and that's not our not providing a lot of energy and in fact that it's not a case of course because these are consumed in the distal intestinal tract by bacteria that produce a lot of different acids that are really energy sources for the host I think I quite often forget that this is also a form of energy that is provided to the animal and so the bacterial production of compounds that are used by the host so I think we often forget that and in terms of structure it's quite remarkable indeed as you said that only very small percentages even below 1% of wheat bran at particular particle sizes is indeed giving yielding positive effects on cut off and this is something that is probably forgotten too much that the distribution of the well the particle size on itself has quite a good effect and probably in in the story of the wheat bran we saw that the smaller particle size wheat bran at a more beneficial effect than the wheat bran on itself maybe because you have a lot of more volume that you creates for bacteria to attach to these particles and then of course we could see that specific bacterial groups attached to the wheat bran and these can probably also convert some of the wheat bran polysaccharides da present there some other binocs Islands or even starch to other you think that this would be also related to the practical size of the rest of the female because I think that is really the message which we want to give this was only 1% and even there depending on the particle size of this 1% you have a dramatic effect on the of the performance of the animals yeah which means that if you extrapolate this to particle size with the whole feed the the effect of particle size is enormous and of course we know this from the difference in particle size in pellets versus mash but it also means to me that the the extremely small particles which are present as dust yeah have a negative disasters effect on performance also versus the city they very large particles which are also not very beneficial and so I think there the message to me there is also that the feed mills have a big responsibility if you if you're milling process is perfectly under control you will have much more benefit from the additives which are put into the feed then if you're feeding your milling process is not working well and you have lots of dust then then you can really come end up with a situation where where all the other efforts were actually almost useless so you must be your boss present by the presentation by lots of speakers they talk about course course mass cause pellets cause particle they don't mention which size they don't mention Co machine 80 and so on so what could be Z Z effect on the microbial town you know a wide variation of the particle size if you use pallets of course it's it's very fast digestible stuff that you deliver to the gut of the animal of course with the risk always of having too much proteins too much undigestible stuff in small intestine that can be used by bacteria there and that can cause an excessive overgrowth for example even lactic acid bacteria that's something you often see in small intestine accumulation or overgrowth of even lactic acid bacteria and that's also detrimental for guitar orchestra medium there's the second example is of course inducing intestinal pathology so I think we have to be careful there and I think indeed also gizzard development is of course important with using even whole wheat or you know particle size feeding that's probably it's also an aspect that we often forget and when we talk about course feeding or improving the Geezer functioning usually you have also better crop functioning what is the portent of the microbiota at the you know at the upper part of the digestive tract compared to the one in the small intestine and later on in the second but how it sees are influenced as well we have not done any Studies on this but we have done quite a lot of studies on lactobacilli and you know the interaction between lactobacilli and the other microbiome and the remarkable thing about the you know the microbes which are present in the crop it's it's mostly lactobacilli yes and so lactobacilli have a huge arsenal of different you know metabolic pathways which we take and use so they are very flexible and they're adapting to almost everything and so in my opinion the crop is not so much a problem of dysbiosis because it's dominated by lactobacilli anyway for the simple reason that these are imprisoned in the environment in huge numbers i mean if you think of a farmer you know making silage you know he puts everything on a big heap yeah drives over it with the tractor and the lactobacilli ferments at the ends that the lactobacilli are there anyway and there they will be colonizing the crop and you can be sure that they will adapt to almost any condition because they have these these dis arsenal of enzymes and of metabolic pathways with which they can help them to switch the problem is as Philip said you know when when this happens in the ileum where the lactobacilli are also dominating yeah they should prepared the the undigestible feed for use by the sickle butyric producing dominating microorganisms but they as the lactobacilli can switch if say the fee is not perfectly digested and digestible nutrients come down the ileum then you know the the lactobacilli have the choice so to say if it were humans between cake and you know dark breads and so what would you prefer you would go for the cake and you would overeat yourself yeah and so that's what actually what happens you get an explosive growth of lactobacilli which is harmful as Philip showed in his presentation yesterday you know the lactobacilli if you if you give them the opportunity they will go into competition with the host as well yeah and that is what needs to be avoided so I would not bother too much about the crop but I would bother much more about about the lactobacilli over growing in the ileum okey and you mentioned also in your presentation so different type of bacteria and so you've seen some presentation with different name different do you think today we have the Metall and we have the correct I would say appreciation or estimation of classification of the microorganism that everybody is using a I would say reliable method and then we can compare compare result so we see so many differences I think first of all to comment on that it's many people start studying microbiota composition and doing microcomputer microbiota composition analysis when they give different feed ingredients and then you look at guitars but what is done way too much now I think is people doing 16s sequencing and describing what is changing in the gut without really thinking about what the effect is and what the particular bacteria that are increased or decreased in abundance are actually doing so I would really encourage people to if they do this kind of studies describing all these bacteria that change in abundance we need to try to get isolates of these particular strains or particular species or genera and then figure out what these bacteria are producing what are they consuming and what is the effect of the all the molecules that they produce on inflammation on intestinal health on interaction with other bacteria with the host so that's something I think we there's still a lack but despite that I think in general and this is just derived not only from studies with chickens with also pigs and cattle even in humans I think we have quite a good view on which large groups of bacteria are beneficial and with families of genera or really belonging to more toxic or harmful bacterial groups so I think there you can at least make some kind of estimate of the let's say the gut health promoting effect or the the positive or negative bacteria that exists so I think we are quite far now in that and we have gained knowledge especially the last few years but now next step is figuring out really exactly what do these bacteria do that's I think most important you know using today in the field we can identify so I would say the right microbiota or the right profile that would support normal growth so forget it and more look at more intelligent by Michaels just one single bacterium that just goes up and then you can say okay this is really a marker for optimal guitar but don't think that really exists I think you will always need some kind of a battery of tests that indicates especially if you think about microbes as biomarkers I think you will probably need more general picture general families for example clearly a marker of poor cuttlefish an increase in entropy bacteria and which are Alphaeus containing gram negatives that includes for example e.coli Salmonella and all these different my theater potentially can be harmful for the gut mucosa I can call the inflammation so that's a marker of poor cutoff probably on the opposite EF others as for example the battery producing strict anaerobes and you can likely what you can quantify this so that's so and to continue that one of the objective of the nutrition it could be either to reinforce the difference or more to help you're about to regenerate as you mentioned for exactly what would be what should be our objective is I think we should really try and gain more information about the undigestible components of feed I think what we are lacking at the moment it's really is chemical analytical methods to to know about you know the structure and and then I mean the complexity also the of the polysaccharides and they you know Eve even cellulose people saying right it's cellulose but there's the norm was different between cellulose as I mean the degree of polymerization the way it's in incorporated in the you know in the rest of the structure and I think we there's still a long way to go as Phillip says we we have learned a lot in recent years about about the interaction of the microbiome with these these components but there's still a long way to go because we know that for instance actually with respect to the cellulose component we know that depending on the on the conditions it's different groups of of microorganisms in in the Sica that will attack the syllabus and so depending on the situation you will you will look at different groups of microbes you know increasing or decreasing depending on the situation and so I think in within this feed market matrix if if in the in the future and nutritionists will be formulating also with respect to the undigestible components of feet it will not be just one figure for energy provided by these and digestible components but will this will be dependent on the you know the the raw materials where these indigestible components come from yeah that is important because we always talk about undigestible for digestibility and just to say okay how can we decrease the undigestible fraction but now both of you say okay indigestible fraction might be a very powerful fraction for the gut else so I think we can conclude to say undigestible fraction may be a good target for the nutritionist keep on the undigestible fraction that don't degrade everything absolutely yes thank you very much filly bender and Rita [Music]