[Music] the next part of the debate is really focusing on practical use of net energy formulation what are the main limitations constraints for feed formulation and we receive quite a lot of questions regarding the uh the formulation for instance when the good point from rick here knowing the nd values of ingredients is only half of the problem we need to know what the requirements are on a daily basis as well how do we do that practically we want to answer i can start i think that's uh quite easy to be very practical uh and that's that that has been my proposal for pigs and i think uh and it worked i think uh for poultry it should be the same uh we know what is what do you mean by a requirement i think it can be a requirement in terms of uh changes in daily uh energy requirement of poultry or pigs over time or different conditions that's good but that's a good exercise for modeling people i think today what in practice you need for talking about requirements is to to know what's the energy concentration of the feeds you are formulating most of the time the the simple answer about requirements uh because most of the time the animals are fed uh at libertarian so it's what should be the energy concentration of my feed so for uh if you are happy i would say with your de or your amy approach uh for the energy concentrations of the feeds you are the concrete feeds you are preparing for your animals the the simple way for predicting or estimating the net energy recommendation is to multiply the uh let's say the de uh regulation for base runs or the me by 71 or by 74 i think that's uh the average efficiency of a standard diet for uh i mean the ratio between net energy and ee or net energy and amy in pigs that's the same for poetry let's say if your recommendation for a diet is 3000 kilocalories per kilo of feed your new recommendation in terms of net energy will be 3000 multiply by 0.74 which is the average efficiency of a standard uh diet for poultry or for boilers and for pigs what is amazing at the end also is that the average efficiencies of diets are very similar uh in pigs and and in birds and i also i would say even in fish there are different most monogastrics are using energy very similarly and they use me4 or d for net energy very similarly so very simple you multiply your de or your me by a constant factor thank you you want to write a comment yeah i think that uh to to complete the comment of jean i would uh i would say to the audience that very nice work taking this uh this aspect i've been already published i think for bro for broilers for example to work from doctor suik from new england or for swine with a work done by ann stein and i would also add a comment that is maybe more a question as well but why not take a chance of any system to uh try to found what are the extra requirement in non-standard condition i would say like under heat stress or under a sanitary challenge and things like that that's uh maybe more a comment or question for the for the for the scientific uh the scientists around but uh it could be a nice opportunity i think just to complete the point that was raised by chaos that's i think that should be less equation of uh feed value than requirements of animals i think i can imagine that people are talking uh thinking about what should be the maintenance requirement should they be changed according to the sanitary according to your environment and so so that's more equation of requirements than the question of feed value so both should join at the end clearly