[Music] let's start with a number of questions that really focused around around the first theme which was presented today and that was about Beauty reproduction so there's the the questions number five up to nine five up to nine all have to do with with beauty reproducing microorganisms and versus adding Beauty right to the feet and I think there's one person here in the room who well cannot stand back he Philip you will have to you have to tackle that one and I think that's a nice start for the discussion because if anyone in the room doesn't agree with him I think you should stand up and say it's all wrong okay thank you for supporting this I try to look away but it didn't so quite some questions are just read the final monarchy in fact in terms of stimulating portrayed production of course you can do different things basically you can indeed add but you rate or whatever form in at least right form in a coated form as pure butter rate drinking water filter native whatever you can use prebiotic substances and probiotics that's I think the whole list that is standing there the thing is the difference between all these if you use nutritional steering meaning prebiotics that's especially I guess useful for animals or even humans that live much longer because they have much more time I think in Brawl the chickens you need something that works fast okay because the animals don't live too long so I guess direct butter rate reduction works quite well in a way that you well you need to well they're different products on the market that will deliver the butter rate at one or another segment in the intestinal tract and that's quite important cuz you you have so many butter rate formulations on the market and there's a huge difference between all of them in a way that we for example tested a lot of different but rate products and some of them really released but rate in small intestine some of them olicity in the large intestine in the seeker some of them don't release it at least you can't measure it so there's a huge difference between all the different compounds which you really should ask the companies that sell this stuff for data that's what I can recommend for any type of feed additive ask good data depending on the reason why you want to use these type of additives because for example if you want to use butter rate as a performance and answer for may be affecting well clostridial disease you need something that is released probably in the small intestine if you want to go for Salmonella control it needs to be in the secret cetera so there's a huge difference with regard to the probiotics the final question there can't we just simply use anaerobic butter raid producers so all these species are just mentioned this alumina coca-c i'll a conspiracy they are strictly anaerobes okay so they're very for the moment they are still very difficult to easily but they can be cultured but it's not so easy to downstream process them to real probiotics because a lot of them are not capable to form spores what means in terms of stability it can be an issue so I think this is more or less an answer to that if I forgot something please ask me any comments on this from the room if not then I I would suggest that we tackle question number four which is on the effect of ambient temperature on intestinal inflammation and good barrier integrity and I think there's two people who can answer here because professor something is coming from a country where you have I think different climates and you know how temperature is definitely in there and I think well professor DeVault had a lot of comments on intestinal inflammation so I can he can join in I suppose please Elizabeth can you comment of this okay the high temperature in my opinion not my opinion I think it's really increase the inflammation process so as I so when you compare the two no house that we have a control of temperature and a more good more good temperature for the animals with a house that doesn't have these conditions that the high temperature is not easy to control and we have more information process and this is easy to understand because when you have a high temperature high temperature where the inflammation process is increase maybe 200 could yes as I mentioned in my talk also this the stress is a very important factor there so heat stress and even in Belgium we have sometimes hot weather seems to be a long time ago by the way but but essentially or what is really there are two things there are you know heat per se so s probably in Brazil all the time but also heat stress is the or changes use changes in temperature which is probably you know or at least more relevant in the northern countries but but stress means in information whether it's eat from heat or psychological stress it doesn't matter too much the aspect is to have in high temperature is to have the heat stress in the animal that is important but but also our relations with the micro organisms that you have in the house normally you have good conditions to increase these microorganisms you have more challenges in the fields when you have warm temperature inside then when you have lower temperature so it's two aspects that you should look at first of all the heat stress the increase of the inflammation process and other side you have more challenges because you have more microorganisms and more bacteria than virus growing on in the field that could affect the the inflammation any further comments on this I want to suggest the water intake as another cause of inflammatory problems because the population of the coccygeal and anybody can comment on this the hot the hot climate could improve the water consumption it will change the way wet later which change the intestinal condition by the excess of water more water because when you have high intake of water in lower intake of feet this also changed the amount of oxygen stats that you are giving to the birds and this is also could affect and we saw that there is some field few the trials that are presented I don't I don't remember exactly the outer that showed that in the Rue I think that they have a high amount of pitocin Kiko lie in warm temperatures then they when they have tune your house so I think that this changes between host and microbiota has a good interference in the in the effect of inflammation too so I think this was more a comment than a question I presume also taking into account of course that the inflammation as such will increase water intake because inflammation will induce leakage and and fluid loss towards the other side so so should we then you know tackle a really really tough question which is number one I think I don't know who put this question up but this is really challenging when regard to nutrient supply and metabolism what proportion of what we feed animal is actually used by the microorganisms versus the part that is you know digested and used directly by the animal itself and there's this proportion change with age of the bird on or with microbiota changes I think I think the answer to this question is not easy but maybe Philip you can have a go thank you well I need it's it's a very difficult but a very good question I guess I think nobody really knows exactly the answer that's something but of course in normal conditions you should expect that at least all the yeah proteins fats are degraded and and all the the in the small intestine and all nutrients are taken up there at exception of course of the indigestible components for example some of the fiber fraction which goes to the seeker and then is really fermented by bacteria and for example what I missed yesterday is if all these well that's when everything goes in a normal condition in normal way when when everything goes well this doesn't seem to be any energy or anything that is in the feed tables that is coming from the fermentation of all these indigestible stuff which is it produces a lot of energy in terms of short chain fatty acids that are taken up by the epithelial cells I think that's a huge amount of energy coming from there but that's in the normal conditions when you have this let's say this overeating as you mentioned day to day this excess of energy excess of protein sometimes then you get what is commonly well called these beers these or these bacteria losses what later whatever and then you have this overgrowth of bacteria in the small intestine which really is very harmful and that's the key example of an excessive overgrowth is necrotic anti-rightist and you have just one bug proliferating enormous lee in the small intestine using all the amino acids present there that are not really digested fast by the host and then you have necrotic and - right it's cutting perfringens consuming all the amino acids because it needs a lot of amino acids to grow and then producing toxins that's the one outer example but of course you have many different other conditions that just result in an overgrowth of different bacterial populations in the small intestine for example even lactic acid bacteria if they are in excessive amounts present in a small intestine this is also toxic because of the lactic acid accumulating and not being used by other bacteria so I think it's I can't really exactly answer the question about what is the proportion but of course we are giving feed to the animals that is a little bit at the limit and if you go a little bit too much in terms of energy or protein then you have create this kind of problem in which too much of the substrate is used in the small intestine by the bacteria and that's commonly what we call these biosis and and small intestinal inflammation is used by that is caused by that could you put it this way flip that in case of inflammation the microorganisms are in competition with the host for the nutrients to some extent I mean because the Clostridium will you know it will consume the proteins as well well in the case of Clostridium yes probably because Clostridium perfringens is auxotrophic for a lot of amino acids meaning that it cannot grow without about ten or eleven amino acids so it that's why it causes lesions it takes all the nutrients from the damaged gut and if you give an excess of proteins this will really start proliferating so in that way there's a competition but I think it's you have to yeah it depends a bit at least in the horse there's one paper suggesting that up to two-thirds of the energy for maintenance can come from non-digestible components that are converted into short chain fatty acids by the microbes so it it adds to you know the the energy supply from the feed which is not taken into account in the classical tables any comments on that yes please you have a lot of tables of requirement for for the chickens do you think that in the future we also need a table for the macaroni of requirements I mean good changes yes how to do that at something else but I mean actually I think in in the but I think that's in the longer future because that's a very difficult thing to do I think it should relate the microbiota composition I think we have tools to actually quantify which bacteria are present which genes are present which enzymes are present you have to relate this with energy extraction and delivery to the host someone should do that once because that's important as you say 2/3 of the total energy it's huge of course that's in horses but still I think a lot of energy is coming from the fermentation and degradation of components from the feet by the microbiota so that's something that should be taken into account in the future just to add to that that was an excellent question but you mentioned 11 amino acids that clostridia needs I think this is something we need to look at how do you know this and are there preliminary information to suggest there's a profile that would increase their proliferation yeah well you just know that because if you would take you can just play with it in in in throat media in vitro you can just leave out amino acids add amino acids and then just you know which one is essential for proliferation of course tritium so it really needs some it has some essential amino acids that need to be in the cultural medium to give it the ability to grow and that's why it this dermis is too toxic it needs feet to grow on that's how we know it yes I just comments about this microorganisms and diet when when we talk about the ruminants they talk about my microorganism was much more than us because they they used to have reading for this microorganism it I don't think I'm I'm not sure about that but I don't think that they are like looking for microorganisms in your romaine to put in the things in in the diet so I think that if you have a balance and microbiota we we don't need to worry about what kind of feed you are doing for the microorganisms or for the hosts because at the end you have growth and you have health so in my point of view yes this could be important but actually if you have a good balance between cost and microbiota this means that everything's work fine and you don't need to looking for watches we'll go to the to the to the bacteria or the microorganisms or to the hosts if you didn't you have grow in health so shall we go to the next page because we have like pages - so on the next page I think there's a couple of questions about about mucin and and you know Elizabeth so showed some very nice histological pictures of epithelial cells with you know the mucin the goblet cells that is produced by them so so maybe you you could start answering this Elizabeth and then I don't know where T or Philip can can join in because I think the question is of course ok mucin do we want a lot of mucin or don't we want a lot of music to be secreted it's always it's about the right amount and it's a very difficult question to answer as in in most cases it is not really a problem as only pathological situations I mean I think bacteria with even thrive on mucin there's one even called Musinga for us I think which tells you something that it's the answer is a it's probably rather a symptom than a you know a real fundamental problem I agree in fact you have two kinds of machine you have a machine that the state might close to the to the potato it's very important that you maintain that to maintain health but when you talk about pathological situations normally the machine that you were talking about is about more fluid machine that increases the transit of the intestine so it's about a sign and it's related to what kind of machine you are looking for it's so we need to understand better how this help but I think that machine is always important you should differentiate the machine that you really need that is the more less equals machine that is more close to the epithelium it's important to digestions because they maintain the nutrients is to be absorbent but when you have a more fluid machine it's a sign that something is going wrong when i looking for goblet cells in the intestine this is the first things that changes when you have a challenges and I mean nutritional challenges or in factional challenges even if you don't talk about challenges if you talk for example in terms of nutrients if you are using corn and you change you for a corn with lower quality with high fibers for example the first things that you have before they you have inflammations and things like that is to increase the fluid of the moussing they are more equals and increase the signs and the amount of machine producing so the machine is always important for suggestions and absorbers and when you have more echoes this means that is a sign that something is not good so when you change the diets between 21 to 22 is always expected that you have increase in machine to adapt that to this new feat but later in ours you can reduce that and everything is okay but if you still have challenges then they start with information process and this is not good once we have collected a lot of samples indeed from this so-called these biosis cases what you see or astrology is definitely the number of goblet cells increasing in also so there's the muse and expression increasing and maybe I just add that for example in case again of Clostridium perfringens this is a highly mucolytic bacterium so it it it consumes also nuisance to proliferate on for example coccidiosis is also stimulate amusing production quite a lot and that's also reason why for example psychotic enteritis can develop so that sort of pathogenic site on the other hand of course you have quite some bacteria that drive into this this mucus to really use it as a substrate to be an intimate contact with epithelial cells very close to the epithelial cells and these of course can then secrete a lot of beneficial compounds that are sensed by the epithelial cells to for example act in an anti-inflammatory way I think we should look much more closely to what is hanging very close to the epithelial cells in the mutant layer because you both have pathogens and beneficial ones and also there's quite a competition so yeah but I agree with ya more mucin is a parameter for problem often we we are really running short in time but maybe Philip you could just briefly comment on 12 and 13 so should we add a certain amount of small particle size with brand or the other parties do you think coarsely ground corn pellets and feeding strategies improve gut health I mean you know traditionally the finer you print the better digestibility is supposed to be that I thought was the classical concept or not I can say something about it but not about Royalists and it's and I'm not a milling person either but I know that at least in pics there there is also adverse effects of the smaller particle size in terms of the induction of stomach ulcers so but I honestly don't know what the case is in the broiler so I'm sorry yes if there's no comments on this from the room that I think we better go to the next page and there's again plenty of questions there so the the this sulfur story is coming back a couple of times so maybe we should you know how toxic is hydrogen sulfide Philip can you just briefly comment on this very briefly it depends on the concentration so it at very low concentration seems to be beneficial really it seems to be okay but at higher concentrations in terms of in case of for example excess of protein fermentation at certain places in the intestinal content it seems to be toxic so it depends on the concentration really you can easily modulate about easily check that which concentration is toxic in vitro it has been described in scientific literature that's very briefly answers but yeah it's mostly the bacteria that do this transition you can actually measure that by quantifying the the the amount of the the gene that encodes the enzyme that is involved in hydrogen sulfide production this is a diesel fatal reductase and actually you can see that if this is increasing you often have more or less problematic microbiota composition which more or less brings me immediately to the marker sign because that's a marker for a toxic composition of the microbiota it's just very so I think 26 and 27 will be appealing to you Theo it's about the antimicrobial growth promoters and whether or not they act through affecting the microbiota I think you have a strong opinion about that now yes because we ourselves have not indeed measured the microbiota the composition that some Canadian colleagues they have and what they've seen at least in mice and some other species that there is you know no no change or they're they're just if you look at the whole attitude there does not there's not necessarily a change in the composition of the microbiota and even in some cases where people have found changes there is always the question what is the in our primary and what a secondary does a change because we change the host or the equilibrium between the house and the microbiota etc but at least there are cases in which you don't see any change in the microbiota composition and so maybe we could do that also question number 25 about the possible link between inflammation and oxidation or oxidative stress can you comment on this so that's Estelle that's the lady sitting over there yes there is a very it's a very close link between information and oxidation at the incest level or at any level that's information you know it's also called you know it's the oxidative burst so you know it produces a whole host of oxidative products is it all bad no it's not all bad or orders or if you keep the oxidation and information you want to keep it at a very minimal level but do you want to you know add a lot of antioxidants yes or that's one way of doing it but be careful because it's also not all of it is harmful one of the as you may know one of the functions of an O it's a very important message also also for instance for mitochondrial function so if it is completely blocked mitochondrial function you know you know what happens you die so that's a very bad idea and and a know is also very important for this growing of blood vessels so so but yes there is a very strong link just comment on the 26:20 because III think this is the first time any questions I think I disagree a bit because I think you if you have even a GPS even that concentrations below the make value I think this will really affect the composition of the microbiota cuz the mix value is so determined for single species you don't determine it for all different species present in the intestinal tract so I think there will be an effect you have some published effects of even grow promoter concentrations to the microbiota but of course I also believe the story of direct modulation I think you have both really and I think next time if we do this kind of studies we should actually measure both maybe should do something jointly because that's I think a good thing to do doing both yeah yes I agree I think to any I I agree with both but in fact I think that when you're looking just for MI see it's not the right way to looking just always for HPV because it's a different approach and in my opinion it's until now we are concerned about use of a GP potential now we really don't know exactly how or the only seek approach of the the mechanism of actions of a GP for our so I think it's a combined effect between a inflammatory and now so microbiota is not only for a GP but for our additives that we have I think many times when you are putting some additives probiotics prebiotics you have interactions between microbiota and inflammation process it is my opinion any comments from the room can we then go to the next page if there's any question on the previous page which you say oh this should have been tackled and I go back but if not and at least we I think we should go for a number of these questions so do you pick your choice to you because you've got the microphone in your hands cell wall and I was also questioned on previous Bates about yeast yeast cell wall beta glucans day as I said in my talk already beta glucans are you now have also direct effects apart from the effects from study for in terms of fermentation so we know we've demonstrated at - and other people - there's a direct effect on in on a inhibiting effect on inflammatory cells so which is good and of course for the fermentative products that's also butyrate in this case from from the beta glucans I think finally so so that's a lot of positive effects just going if I may go to the biomarkers then the questions 33 biomarkers using human intestinal information inflammatory bowel disease yes I mentioned Milo proxy days that is from you know from the group of inflammatory bowel diseases it's not only MPO hours I like NPO because it's a simple and genetic test which is nice so it for the other indicators like you also mention the s100 etc the problem there as always we need antibodies and especially with chickens but also even in pigs the problem is the human antibodies don't work or be very careful all the producers they advertise it's a multi species Eliza they lie and as a as soon as you you know just order say if you want to go their first demand a free test to test it yourself but in our experience almost in all cases is just a plain lie so so it always means you have if you go for the stir proteins like calprotectin etc and s102 the whole series you need to develop your own antibody which is you know takes time and so that's what was one of the reasons why we went to test me of Tiran just remember it's not present or NPO was not present in chicken so we thought you know Nichiren it's a it's a derivative of DNA so it is a small molecule in each species the same so there the antibody test works the the unfortunate thing is that at least the first indications is that neo peteyrin in chicken is not as good as a marker as it is in IBD or you know or in mammals in general so we also answered in our D the 34 can we use the human tisk cow protects him no because you it simply does not react did we at what age I just you know almost from the start and then chicken I would say this probably the amount is limiting well about this yes so I did the not one but many trials with so out in what I was I went to to say to you is that until one a month this could help if you use a high amount of this this could be worse and I have some trials showing that when you increase the amount of cell you have more inflammation process and this could not be good for a weight gain so the paints and depends what you are looking for for example in Brazil we are exporter of brothers and someone a lie is a big issue so sometimes not sell out but also some probiotics are things that are directed to Salmonella and help someone Ella does not help for growing so we need to choose if the adjective is for control of someone Ella or if it's for growing this is important it's not always you have additive with actions in both sides sometimes you should use appropriate that is not good for improve growing but they could be very good for someone else I and things like that so it is for sure out and for another additives that you have well about what a biomarkers I don't think that you right now we have a red biomarkers for poetry we need to develop that and this is why I finished my my presentations tell you that you need to teach people we need to start combine what you have inside the feedmill you have a lot of information freedom you about the quality of ingredients and challenges that you have of mycotoxins or no another factors that could affect it intestinal health and you need to combine it with the information that we have from field this is what I'm so concerned about to have informations from field in numbers not just say I'm having good problems what kind of good problems what is the intensity of the good problems this is why I put these in numbers and I think we should combine these results and then looking for the biomarkers that has in the literature improve each one and trial first at the universe and in small trials but later you should put in the field careful to understand how to apply it but right now we don't have that this is why I say we need to work together industry University and try to find a way to have a good biomarkers in the next years now right now we don't think we do have we have that let's see what more about the the biomarkers it's about in close three do is I keep Lee well this is my point of view plus region is problem when do you don't know how to manage that because if I'm not wrong they are part of microbiota and we have some trials with backyards birds when you're looking for closed region liberals in the backwards grow poetry that stay with different kind of environment and things like that they have lower closed regions because they don't have this is over feet and things like that so it's a product but the paints who had you you think about if you just look at foreclosed regions this does means that you have problems because they are there is always a relationship between balancing microbiota and host so just looking for close to each oh I don't think that will be a good idea to marker if you have good or bad good health and about no that's it maybe just some very specific remarks I think in terms of timing at what H I think we should aim at about two weeks because then you can really say something about what is going to happen at three to four weeks of age which is the most critical period I think so it should be a marker that gives you an indication of what will happen it should be an early marker that's for sure the case and maybe also importantly for thirty 29:31 I think it's we're very close to it I think in three years we will have something cuz there are a lot of groups working on that and I think I'm quite confident we are developing things and it will be there in two or two years I'm quite confident you will have it last worthy just mark on yes we are working very hard on it and we hope even within two years have an animal side tests so you know whatever form we are working on it and then also the qualitative Marcus no they are indeed to quantitate if we now have for for the MPO test a very good idea about the baseline you know and everything above the baseline is indeed you know a sign of something is going wrong right mr. chairman mr. ah mr. president can we then then we can start doing the last page yes so there's several questions there I think maybe the climatized versus control housing yes there's one which is essentially two different ways this high energy works perfect just give just for instance glucose and you know information intestinal information goes through the roof or have anti-nutritional factors like in feeding Borden's case of chicken feeling barley and rye this bad quality will work too and so will if you'da climatized i should prove a lot of nutrition models for inflammation and also wheat and things like that for four brothers and what I have to say to you is that I have inflammation process I can see it in in astrology aspect but not always in in terms of performance in trials at the laboratory I don't know if you understand it's like you can put this this challenges that could be a unto the tradition of factors even mycotoxins depending of the level of use you can see inflammation you can see some kind of lesions but not always will be related with performance at University at laboratory levels because you don't have another challenges that you help that is different when you're looking for the same Olivia at field because in the field you have a No factors that could help that so in the laboratory oh I have nutrition's models but always you need to combine it or with coccidiosis infections or with clothes storage infections to have a good result in terms of performance okay we can have a nutrition modules for astrology and lesions but not always for for performanc you need to combine nutrition and infections to have a good models to study it in the in the laboratory levels and about climate ice and control housing what I showed you is the difference in cytokines and inflammations do low inconsistent feeling to a core and just hoped it could be because of many things like I said could you reduce the feed intake but in fact the feed intake was also reducing because of the inflammation process so at this point many things will act in this situations could be the feed intake could be alterations in microbiota because you have a different to temperature and this is called inter ferret microbiota you have an environment and of course in the gut of the animals and the inflammation process that happens but how is for me is clear you have a disruptive between host and microbiota and this result in inflammation process that will result in lower performance so finally short in connection with your point it's very important to realize that if you do test on experimental farms they are usually too to clean so that means you know you are already so close to the 100% that whatever you give you won't see anything so that's another reason why you always should introduce as you said a challenge it's a birth for cotton point yes I think these are the wise words we need to go back to the field and in realistic field situations and with this I think we should have some points here when you talk about Maya marks are something one things I I went to mark you this sample is very important you cannot take it all ever birds there you should always looking for what kind of birds you choose to looking for biomarkers even if you don't have it is now even for microscopic aspects always you should look in is not random mines if you're looking for a randomized bird sometimes you took the best birds because these lowers because it's more weighted so we need always to have a point of the uniformity in the flock to choose the best bird to serve as a sample for biomarkers this is very important to really be useful in field right thank you very much I think we the all three speakers have done a great job answering trying to answer all the questions and I think they really deserve a good hand [Applause]