[Music] good morning good afternoon good evening ladies and gentlemen welcome to all of you for our new live webinar today and I would should say to our TV program fee channel dot online as often as possible we try to address your concern from the practical issue to the scientific basis from with expert from all over the world from the academia as well as from the industry each webinar starts by a situation in the field and after we try to have an explanation on the fundamental basis with experts and we organize a roundtable to allow you to ask any questions to our invitees during the sessions since our previous webinars we are posted a lot of documents and events on the fictional platform you could see the first advance here Academy organised in Barcelona prior to the European symposium on poetry nutrition with a nice presentation from Massimiliano Karachi and we have also interviewed during the ESPN to show in fact the large attendance we are this year at the ESPN we have also new events coming soon we have recently recorded the keynote speeches at the IC conference God tells conference or intestinal else scientific interest group conference organised in Bangkok ten days ago and this will be posted early next week so it's very very interesting and it is our force feed channel live webinar today and we are really pleased to welcome so many participants and I just remind you that you can post any question during the webinar today at any time and they will be addressed during the roundtable sessions and if your question has not been answered today you will get the unsquare on the free channel platform [Music] so many conference and Congress on meat quality issues addressed to breast meat myopathy recently so over the last two years I would say most of the conference address these issues so the would embrace the white stripping the dibs dibs and roam the green muscle and also the spaghetti meat I learned from from Massimiliano and we think that scientific progress undergoing actually ads at the Research Institute and so on and one main comment on issue observation we saw is actually it's an issue related to oxidative metabolism when I say oxidative metabolism it does not mean that it's a problem of oxidation so people trying under need to put on tuxedos if not solve the issues but really there is a link between the oxidative metabolism and the function of the mitochondria may be related to the energy metabolism I'm I'm sure that Cece berry will further comment on that later on but we decided maybe not to continue to focus on that topic which is very hot topics today but next year it will be even more interesting because we will see progress but it is also important to address some issues that still remain a very big concern what we call the losses so drip loss the cooking loss Z and also loss related to Z to the meat during the year preparation and during the processing and during the Z storage and also the meat color and particularly the mythical of change during storage I am pleased to welcome today two well-known scientist and a representative of the poultry industry and I will start with the lady doctor sessile berry from INRA in - in france as director of the food three research unit of young researcher unit develop lots of work on the meat quality and she continues even with managing the whole lab to continue to be investigating on meat quality and particularly on the russian ship between nutrition genetic and the meat quality issues and I think it's she will give her a bit more understanding of what she is working on later on and professor Massimino Petrucci from University of Bologna in Italy and everybody knows Massimiliano because he talked at many conference about this breast myopathies a wooden breast and why stripping and I would say I've learned earlier on in Edinburgh the egg meat conference about the spaghetti meat and I realize it's not positive to have the meat and the spaghetti at some time so I think it's a it's a good to to have some some of better explanation and that with Massimiliano and I would like also to introduce people from the field from the slaughter plant Paul as a representative of the European poultry processors Association he is also working for EDC the French leader in poultry production and he will talk directly from the slaughter plant so but by the way it's a good time maybe to addressed the first question to Z your processor what is a current feel the situation regarding those issues so I will ask Paul what do you think about that from the practical point of view from the field situation when we are speaking about meat because we are in a slaughterhouse we can say is that water content since many years has been increasing we have not on our side of our industrial side not any figures explaining what was the increase was what increase of water content of meat but as it has increased we have more drip rows that we had before and if we look today as the economical consequence because you try to evaluate what could be the impact of all this on the economy of the poultry chain it's very hard to find data in the literature so we try to illustrate with that slide the economical consequence of the dripless we took only a very small example alpha percent of change of drape laws regarding only the breast meat if we start with a two kilogram birth weight live weight it represents only two gram I would say of losses at the carcass level at the breast meat level which is less than one sense of a euro but if you multiply by the normal I would say mid-sized type of of producer about 1 million broiler us a week it makes quite significant amount 10,000 Europe week and if you count on euro basis it goes up to 500 thousand euro for producer and this type of producer is corresponding to roughly 250,000 turn of feet per year so it's a huge impact in fact just this alpha percent on the economic benefit of the patrician so I think it's important to maybe to address first the the focus on the losses 3 plus cooking loss and then we like to ask our scientists scientific experts today to explain what is behind in factory plus and what are the incapacity so I say the first question could be the link between trip loss and water holding capacity what is change muscle is facing going from muscle to meet and what is the importance of the cell membrane integrity and I think I could ask Massimiliano to explain a little bit more what is the transformation and what is the drippers at the muscle level ok I think that first of all we need to say that meat is composed by 75% of water so water holding capacity is very important technological property because is the ability to retain its own water and this property changed a lot during post-mortem time because at the beginning water just after the death of the animal is contained inside on muscle fiber but during transformation of muscle to meet we have formation of extracellular spaces and there is contraction of the nozzle due to rigor mortis development and there is a squeeze out of water from the inside the cell to the outside of the cell and water that are present in the extracellular spaces can be lost during storage or processing especially if meat is cut if meat is cut there is a huge loss of water and a deep loss is associated especially with post-mortem acidification rate ultimate pH and membrane integrity as we will see later for cooking losses this situation is a little bit different because of course following cooking there is a very huge loss of liquid not only water but also protein and fat and there is two key point during cooking treatment first of all around 40 to 50 Celsius degree we have a longitudinal shrinkage of the muzzle and this promote of course loss of water but we have another key point during cooking treatment because around 70 degree Celsius we have a transversal shrinkage of the Mazon and then a huge flow of the water from the muzzle to the external spaces and if dripless is a very associated to glutamate pH for cooking losses are also important the protein content of the meat and especially the quality of the protein because for example collagen is not able to retain water so if meat is very rich in collagen or especially very poor netcat both in poultry pork and beef we have huge loss of water and so we have of course protein denaturation following cooking but in the industrial level for a manufactory processing processes prado we have also addition of salt and ingredient and salt and ingredient can help to bind water its whole water but also water that are adapted during a processing and especially for drip losses is very important membrane integrity membrane integrity because as explained before water is Intrepid the majority of the water is interrupted inside the muscle fiber so if it's possible to maintain as much as possible membrane interior so in this way you can keep water inside the muscle fiber but if there is loss of membrane integrity there is also loss of water from inside to asad spaces and to protect the membrane integrity for example it's good to have the vitamin e in the diet because vitamin e is able to protect phospholipids that are in the cell membrane and in this way to protect the membrane integrity and if we need to resume the factor that affect the water or the capacity we can say that overall it's very important the protein content of the meat and also the quality especially related to the collagen percentage also are very important the protein charges as we will explain later protein charges depend on the ultimate ph of the meat protein denaturation that can happen during cooking but can happen also during transformation of muscle to meat so we will say that if pH is low and temperature of the module is very high we will have a protein denaturation also in fresh meat cell membrane integrity as explained it and only in in faster process product addition of salt and ingredient added during formulation and water holding capacity is very important property because effect several property of the meat if you use meat as a raw material for further processing water holding capacity effect processing hild so there is a very implication on economical issue water holding capacity affect sensory property of the need because if there is a huge loss of water during cooking of course meat is lost Jewishness and can be also less tender nutritional value because as I said before and there is no only loss of water but within water there is also protein and fat also in freshman shelf life because shall liquid inside the packages can affect appearance of the product but also promote can promote microbial growth and so water holding capacity is a very important property of the meat is interesting what you say the Massimiliano because you stress a lot on the protein aspect so the protein quality so I think we will see later on with Susilo but may be the interaction on the amino acid supply and the and the meat quality but I would like now maybe to ask another question because we talked started started to talk about ultimate pH so what is the relationship between ultimate pH water on the capacity and dripless and may be say see I know that you are using very often this slide but I think it's very important to explain to everybody what are the inter connection between these issues okay so as Massimiliano mentioned the post mortem pH fall that occurs after death in the muscle is very very important maybe the key parameters that determine water holding capacity in the mid I mean trip loss cooking loss and even processing yield so there is two trades during post-mortem pH fall the first main character is the initial rate of post-mortem peach fall that is measured usually at 15 to 20 minutes postmortem and it is in broiler and Turkey much related to the activity of the birds on the slaughter at the slaughter plant for example when there is a lot of wind flapping the initial pH fall will be a very fast and in this case the mid produce will be called PS limit for pale soft and exudative and as you can see on the slide this meat is very light in color very exudative and it will have also a very poor processing yield the other condition is related to the ultimate pH of the meat and in this case the activity of the birds is not very important but the main parameter which determine the ultimate pH of the meat is the amount of glycogen stored in muscle at this if this amount of glycogen is low the meat produce will have a very high pH and it will be called the DFG mid for dark film dry meat and this meat as you can see is very dark in color it has it is very dry in the my house because the water is very well conserved and so it's not very good when you taste it and a problem can be also the depot storage ability of this meat because of the high microbial evolution during storage on the other side there is the acid meat that is produced from muscle with high amount of glycogen and for example in the case of the breast of broiler acid meat is meat is considered as acid when the pH is below five point seven and in this case as the PS limit the meat will be very pale exudative and also will have a very poor processing yield so in broiler we talk more but I submit and I would say gfd meat than pse meat compared to POC actually the PS limit does not concern so much the broiler but may concern more turkey because of wing-flapping but also the fact that after slaughter during processing of the caucus the temperature remains high for a long time because of the weight of the animals and there is a condition with a high temperature a low pH and in this condition the protein of the muscle are denied rated and in the case of broiler this condition because of the low weight of the broiler is not the same because of the machining procedures that decrease the temperature quite quickly so you mentioned turkey do you mean that France on heavy broilers would face the same issues and was a big bird like turkey so it's totally different turkey and named broiler I'm not sure there is any information about that but for big broilers I think processor they have to manage well the shilling and cooling procedure of the carcass to avoid this happens ok so regarding zeal to meet pH is precise a little bit more but does that mean really regarding the protein structure and so on as I said before pH especially ultimate a pH affect the protein charges distribution as told by Susilo if pH reach very low value like five point seven five point six so we can classify this pH as associated with PSC condition in this way a pH is very very close to the Isola tree is as electrical point of the protein which is the means of eyes electrical point it's electrical point means that positive and negative charges present on the surface of the protein are more or less the same at this point the ability to retain water is minimal in the meet because the structure of the myofibrillar present on the muscle fiber is very sticky and in that way there is very low spaces available for held the water within myofibrillar spaces and so this is why PS in it as a very low ability to retain water as opposite if the ph remain in value higher than six six point one six point two ph is very far from the eyes electrical point so there is a huge amount of negative charges and these negative charges can bind water and structure is more open because of the repository energy in the muslim so in that way ability to retain water is iron and these PS c and d FD are problem that we can found especially in poultry but also in pork meat while in beef we can find especially d FD meat so it seems that both poultry and pork are more prone to develop PSC condition this may be because especially breast muscle and loin muscle for Peaks are composed especially of white fiber and the white fiber are more reaching glycogen so during post mortem times there is higher production of lactic acid and in that way pH can drop around value very close to his eyes electrical point so the measure of pH for example is a way to understand if to determine the water ability of the meter so in fact you're more than talking about PSC and dfd meeting should say acid meet and qualify the g FD meeting with a high ph meter but finally it's more than pea seeds as admitting brokers i would in poultry in pork I understand that it's PSE meat and they are the same issue regarding the dry film and there was a confusion many years ago about PSC condition and acid condition because really when you see a PSE or acid meat for example breast meat broiler breast meat they look the same and they have about the same traits but most of time when we saw meat with a light color and very exudative it correspond to acid MIT which means a meat with low pH I would say maybe in Turkey it's a little bit different because we know that in Turkey there is both condition the PSC and the acid condition if you can ask Paul again but what are the practical consequences of Hydra plus low water earning capacity for the pre-processor and for the slaughter plant so maybe Paul if you can comment on that what are the practical consequences positive process are we we are facing to the situation which are different from is it are we on tray retail back a week on processing further processing product if we are in trail pack we we can see in any country in any tree that there is more drip loss that there were many years ago and now it is also very different if you see on a tray you you don't need to look at the date of the date or best before because when you see the drip lot you can say without any labeling how aged is a mid Paul and do you think that the consumer at the end react quickly to this to those issues I'm not so sure because you have it depend of the candid of tray you have is it vacuum bag is it skin pack is it you have a folder so so a different way to absorb it or not so independence or if it's transparent or not it depend how the product is deeply and show to the consumer in the train that is on the marketing retail side about processing what we are facing is we can see when we are selling meat in bulk I would say 500 kilo bank that the more additional it's not what I've got a drip lost in the into the bag but it depends after which kind of processing we are doing if for example we are processing them to make a hand and we are greenly taking out the water before processing of course there is lost of yield but if we are processing them that is to say for example to make nuggets and we are processing at a very low temperature not negative very low temperature rape laws are binding with the meat and there is no effect so now what are the solutions I would say to reduce a trip loss that's a main question that everybody has on the lips I would say say what has a solution to reduce 3 plus and maybe say silicon introduced first the ideas about potential solutions yes so as we expand you a main factor of variation for 3 plus and I would say water holding capacity is the ultimate pH of the meet which is related to the glycogen contents so solution that can change reduce for example the glycogen content of muscle will be efficient to reduce drip loss and cooking loss and improve processing yield so for many years in in in how we have studied the factors that affect the glycogen in muscle and we have found that there is two main factor which are genetic and nutrition but also some management practice that can affect this character and so by modulating this factor we we we think that it will be possible to improve meet quality and especially water or the incapacity let's talk maybe about more about genetics to start so genetic it is interesting to to know that in broiler most of the quality traits meet quality traits are under a genetic control and most of them are related to the ultimate ph of the meat so for this reason we have started a selection on these traits to look at the consequence for all the meat quality traits including trip loss and n cooking loss of course so by studying this model which represents finally meet with the acid pH and we meet with a very high pH we were able to demonstrate that it is possible by this way to reduce the drip laws to reduce the cooking laws to improve by three points the processing yield and also to improve the color of the meat that is a very good tool in fact a very good model in fact to work on the basis of how do you explain the ultimate pH and how do you correlate the ultimate pH and the drip loss and and so I think it's a very important model maybe Massimiliano you can maybe you have to add CC maybe on the on the nutrition aspects you want to comment a little bit more yes so if we can see that the genetic can be an selection on meat quality can be efficient it is also important to understand how animal nutrition can modulate muscle glycogen and can modulate the ultimate pH of meat so this was not really stood yet before and we start some students on different aspects such as antioxidant or amino acid so we just stuck with the antioxidant integrity issue because especially PSC meet the condition is associated with wristlet or stresses especially pretty low distress so it is important to increase the tolerance of the bird to result stress and especially to its stress so dietary use of antioxidant especially vitamin E and selenium has been demonstrated that is able to increase the tolerance of bird especially to eat stress so to prevent or to mitigate the occurrence of PS emmitt but as I explained before vitamin he and selenium can be accumulated in as a module and this can prevent also the damages of membrane and so prevent losses of liquid from the inside and to outside spaces so antioxidant use in a diet can have to effect one to preventing stress during resolute or phases and the second during processing to prevent damages to membrane integrity and also there are also some other study that also tested also like a natural antioxidant and natural antioxidant can be effective but cannot be accumulated in the muscle cell so the use in the diet is not so effective like vitamin E and selenium so I'm sure that there will be a quite lot of questions about the strategy nutritional strategy to to work on that how long should you supply the animal before slaughter and so on we'll come back here later on with that we talked about aunty oxidants and what about amino acids I know that massaman do address the question of protein protein content and so on do you think that with amino acid we can affect the protein and affect the meat quality yes actually amino acid supply have been studied for many years in relation to performance and meat production yield but several years ago we start to to look at the effect of amino acid supply on on meat quality traits and firstly demonstrate very well that supplementing birds with lysine was able to increase breast meat yield which was well known degrees also body fatness but as a very interesting result we we were able to show that it it also decreased drip loss by increasing the ultimate pH of the meat so after this promising result we tried to figure out the relationship between the amino acid balance in the diet and the ultimate ph of the meat and we designed several study to look at the response of birds in terms of ultimate ph and what we demonstrated is that the balance of amino acid can really change the amount of glycogen in muscle with real impact on meat quality and this is very efficient because by changing the amino acid balance during three days before slaughter we were also able to change trip loss and processing yield of the meat okay that is very interesting but if we look at maybe a type of results you you obtain what could be at the end as a consequence and the practical consequence at the animal level so the consequence for meat quality was of course significant but with our partner we try to look at the calculation regarding the cost and again we can have by feeding birds with with good amino acid balance and what we found is that if the diet is well done to produce meat with a high pH we can compare to the control we can gain about 100 euros per tonne of meat produce and on the other side if the diet is not well designed and make to produce acid meat the loss can be very high because it's almost 400 euros so in fact in a in some way you say is that the difference of the the variation could be up to 600 euro you know per turn factor I would see in practical condition do you think that people can can use that strategy today or is there still some refinement to develop on how to practically that actually I think our study is not ready to use solution because people they have to adapt their nutritional strategy to to the ability of bird and to the official physiological capacity of birds but it clearly showed that diet that limit protein synthesis and increase energy storage is not good for processing yield and for trip loss so I think by dis knowledge it can help nutritionists to design a diet and to help to produce meat with higher pH and at least less variable page so we really need to understand better in fact the evolution of the nutrition prior to slaughter and really play a little bit more with the feed formulation and to really see up to the benefits and maybe without too much impact on the feed cost at the end yes in this experiments we have met several the cost of the the feed was not really increased because we increase the lysine but we decrease the other amino acid so the cost on feed was very low but by adding all the benefit we can have all along the chain until the processing we can have a very very high benefit and I think now it is important to not only calculate the benefit on the breast material but it is also important to consider all the waste and all the losses after slaughter and after you also worked on specific amino acids to shoot to see if there was some effect on some amino acid like sulfur amino acid I would say on through the antioxidant potential so we consider first the amino acids as just break of construction but also maybe the roles beyond this protein deposition so as antioxidant fanzone can you comment a little bit more on what you did on that issues yes search for amino acids are very interesting because as you say they are amino acid to build the protein but they have also a specific role on the antioxidant response and by these two ways I think they are able to improve meat quality because they will protect the protein from oxidation but they are also able to modulate the ultimate pH of the meat and this was demonstrated in an experiment by using the HM TBA instead of classical methionine and we were able to to show that by using it both the UT made pH was increased and oxidative stability was also increased with a positive impact on meat quality especially dripless so still some work to do on amusement I think Nutrition has to be studied in relation with of course performance and feed feed efficiency meat heels but really nutritionists as to consider also meat quality industry it's very interesting that you show you demonstrated numbers that you could manipulate in fact the meat quality by the previous diet before before strata maybe I will ask Paul now in the practical conditions you know do you miss your drip loss in slaughter plans today you know because that's the main main question we have very often I cannot I cannot speak for anybody in the supply chain because I am I would say only working in one plant even if I'm visiting a lot of them in the bandwidth where I'm currently working we are not measuring but we have a quite good view of it is it more important or less important what I can tell you is changing from everyday within a day within a frock we asked to Sicilian massimino is not some ideas about solution to read root 3 plus but I would like to ask so people from the industry also to say do they have found a way to reduce drip load well to zero have they found solutions to reduce 3 + so Paul if you can objectively I would say answer to that question do you have a solution to reduce nip rows very interesting question because they have no real answer if we would I would say as a joke even if we would know about it either would be secret either we can better say that we don't know really we are facing this changing situation all the time but it is more it's bigger than it was some years ago poorness you have a European representative of the preprocessor I would have a question do you think that we are all facing the same issues in European countries and I think you are feedback from the field is interesting on that yes what is easy I am NOT a scientist ok but I am traveling a lot and I can say anywhere that you have trip losses in a retail bank so we are all of us facing the situation maybe also we could say that as heavy or heavier the birth ha maybe the percentage is little below higher but of course as a piece of meat are bigger there is more through process okay we can be back excuse me to be back on on facing the situation from country to country I am speaking about the European side because we are actually and it is really totally different in some countries on retail back where you are water chilling because it is nothing yeah we say at the beginning that we are focusing on three pluses we don't talk about I would say breast meat default Maya parties and so on but it's interesting to see is there a link between the current breast meat default and what we have talked before you know drip laws and what holding capacity so Massimiliano maybe you can this is an interesting question because market is pushing to have easier birth because of the increased demand for Kitab and especially processed product so as demonstrated by Susilo in several study if you increase the loading gauge there is a decreasing glycogen content in the muscle so there is an increase in pH and this may be associated to an increase that water holding ability as explained before but overall you may see decrease in water holding ability why maybe because there is an increase in occurrence of abnormality like for example PS limit because if your bird are less prone to tolerate its stress during prayer time but also because if you increase latte rage you can have also an IR occurrence of breast myopathy like why striping and especially Odin breast and if we look at the pH of wooden breast we can see that the pH is higher than normal more or less very similar to DF the condition so we can expect that wooden breasts can have a very good water holding ability and if we look at data on drip loss value are not so different in respect to normal beat but if we cook wooden breast meat we can observe a huge flow out of liquid during cooking and this especially because there is a reduction of protein content in OD breast and this is the main cause because of the reduced water holding ability of the breast so in this case there is no pH effect but there is a protein effect that effect water holding ability so really all the parameters fantastic of meat quality are interrelated and we should not forget the second question at the initiative of this baby now but mid color so in fact if because you talk about dark meat they meet and so on we talked about acid and on acid meat and so on so what has the relationship between meat color stability and drape losses in general if we consider color of course color depend on the amount of myoglobin or myoglobin in the meat so if we compare breast meat and leg meat in poultry of course breast meat is lighter in respect to leg meat because of the lower content of myoglobin but we can also we need also to consider the atmosphere of packaging that affect the color because if meat is packaged under vacuum like for example for market exchange there is a very low pressure of oxygen and in the in this in this way there is prevalence of myoglobin native myoglobin so the can the color is a red purple but if we expose meat to high concentration of oxygen like ordinary atmosphere or like modified atmosphere packaging we increase the the rate of oxygen and in this way we promote the formation of oxy myoglobin so is the color that we are more familiar with the mid but if both kind of myoglobin undergo oxidation there is a loss of color because there is formation of net myoglobin and in that way there is both discoloration and darkening of of the meat and we can also say that there is a third factor that effect mid color why breast meat with PSC abnormality is paler than breast meat when that is affected by the FD condition because the myoglobin content is the same so there is no effect of the amount of myoglobin but meat that have different pH value have different property in interaction with light so if meat is as a very high pH light is able to penetrate in the depth of the meat and in this way there is a high proportion of absorption of the light by myoglobin and meat became darker otherwise if meat has very low pH like when we have PSC condition light is not able to penetrate inside of the meat so we have poor absorption of the light and meat appear to be very pale so there is a relationship between color if we consider the same muscle and water-holding ability it's interesting because we do focus quite a lot on your red meat I would say is a poor for the sighing drumstick but what about the breast meat because we are not talking about red meter yeah so how do you explain the change in color it's maybe not plan okay I think in the case of broiler breast meat or turkey breast meat the main factor of variation for color is is pH and it's very when you go in in a slaughter plant and you can see all this bread filleted together there is a huge variability which is a really a problem for retailers especially when you sell cuts and when you measure the pH of these cuts you can do a very nice relationship and a very linear relationship between lightness and pH so I would say that because of all this factorization I mean genetic nutrition management that affect you teammate pH you will also affect the color in in slaughter plant and I think it's really a challenge to to control both of them it's interesting so we we run a trial with poultry processor a few years ago and we address the color stability also it was on a turkey meat on brochette with cyan drumsticks and again we looked at first how to stabilize in factors abroad I would say as an anecdote in front you know the weather is not always constant so you prepare the brochette and after a couple of days a ways of change and then the brochette staying the retailer retain shops and then people the colors change and people do not want to to have anymore this type of meat we try to prolong and in fact what we realize it could be possible with unsexy not like organic selenium and so on to go further to to maintain the color a little bit further say 1.5 days something like that but we also end up with a question of ultimate pH Aegean and we say maybe there is an interrelationship with the ultimate pH maybe we could ask in fact what is a practical situation in slaughter plants you know about the mid color and I would like to ask Paul yeah what are your comment on that regarding the mid color and from your field experience once again I would say we are facing even within a flock color differences of course we have some flocks from day to day from flag to flock which are which are with more darker meat or not but the major things is it is usually within a flock and we have to be to take care of it because when we are if we want to make a nice tray we have to be sure there is not one dark and five light with light colors and for processing it's not the same issue because as we are mixing in five hundred or one ton bag or batches it's more distributed yeah I pol easier demand from your customers about this mythical of stability improving the Midcoast ability from your customers do the demands that I would say no directly but of course on the impression you have on the consumer are they buying or not buying once again but with I have nothing to measure to measure it but what we are facing is sometimes we have some pieces which are darker than the others and can create some troubles it's interesting to see that in the industry we don't measure things and so on but we are paying the consequence if people are not relying from the same shop or from the same packaging and so on so you know that the reason there is an issue now we are opening the time of the run table I think many questions arrive during your presentation and we will try to answer to most of them I hope to start I suggest to take the first question yes how to measure it's a good point after the question from you boss and from Paul how to measure drape loss in slaughter plants could we imagine a predictor based on a rapid measurement technology what do you think about that can we translate what we measure in the university to what we can observed in the in the field really your feedback who wants to start maybe I think that there is several techniques especially spectral techniques as we told you there is a nice relationship between an hi relationship between color and drip loss or water holding capacity so measuring color in slaughter plants cannot the meat can be a good way yes but even if the problem is the the the currency in the slaughter pen because it's not like pork this development have been possible in pork for many years now but in in broiler slaughter plant because of the the fastness the it's quite difficult but I think spectral tools can help to determine a trip loss in fact you too would say to fit with the speed of the chain and so on maybe we need to have something to measure a distance you know really observe quite enough to see those a change going on and so on you have any comments for example for turkey it's easier to develop this system because of the bigger size of the breast joins in that way we can okay in turkeys is more easier also because the speed of the processing line is lower than for broiler and also in slaughter plant is it is possible measure parameter like pH and Replace also under laboratory condition okay I think that is very for slaughter plant em a laboratory equipped with a parameter because the measure of pH is very important so you can understand if pave color is associated with lower pH or not so you can understand better which is the causes of the paler color and also it is possible to make some test of dripless also in the company I'm thinking about the PhD because you see there is a threshold you see five point seven above five point six point one six point two why not you have an indicator you know stick on the the breast I would say and changing color when you are below or when you are above and then you know that it's a green or red is that would that be possible it's very difficult because pH measurement is a little bit slow you need that you need some second to read the pH and you need also the contact and when you have contact there is also a risk for contamination so while if you measure color you have no problem about contamination and also the speed now with a very powerful computer it is possible also to manage images okay yeah I think it's important for the future to try and to work on tool development for the slaughter plant but really I think maybe it would be also efficient to work on on the factors that affect all these traits to be sure that when the broiler arrived at the slaughter plant their characteristics are the good one good one so maybe we can jump on the next questions from the web yes how are linked the values drip losses water loss during mid storage at 4 degree cooking loss freezing loss and everything so we close and so on also as I told before my experience dripless is very associated with pH and of course membrane integrity these are the two key point for cooking losses are also important the protein content and quality so there is an association but are two different characteristics of the meat and about freezing losses freezing losses are very associated to the technique of freezing so if you have very efficient technique you can have very small size of the ice crystal and in that way damages of the muscle fiber is very low so there are some relationship but you can have also some time different behavior the discussion is very interesting but the time is flying I think maybe we can take another question what is may have yes practical situation I would say what is the main solution to reduce three plus and what type of development we can expect in the future to reduce this this issue I think research can help to understand which factor are controlling dripless and to better understand how nutrition how genetic our bird management can help to control the bird metabolism and also the bird oxidative stress which is very important can help to improve meat quality including all drip and cooking loss in general we see that diet before slaughter is very important please lower end link before slaughter is very important but also processing as lautering technologies very important standing procedure but also chilling application of electrical stimulation so there are many point that can be controlled to reduce as much as possible 3 plus because a certain amount of deep loss is natural so cannot eliminate a trip loss because this deep loss is normal in meat okay sign is for both of you the time is flying really because we enjoy the discussion and the presentation and so on I would like to say that you you will receive questions and in fact we will answer to the questions and later on so I will drop the question to both of you and we will prepare the answers to post on feed channel I would like to first warmly thank our speakers and Paul from distance but I think it's quite interesting to share experience and all the participants you will be able to listen again to the presentation to through podcast and also to ask your question then czr unsquare to your questions on feed channel dot online don't be disappointed if that is your question as not being raised but the time is really flying we hope you enjoyed this webinar and we give you next appointment in december to have a live webinar on amigas so really bye bye everyone and looking forward to seeing you on next December [Music]