[Music] good afternoon ladies and gentlemen it seems this tiny space that I'm welcoming two very big guys on amino acids and chicken and poultry so dr. Alex ghazal from aviation from the technical support nutritionist for the North America and process of my kid from Arkansas University you are all well known in our industry and so on and I wanted to organize the small roundtable on sulfur amino acid to see how important are the defining of refining the requirement on sulfur hypnosis so the first question I would like to ask you is with the evolution of the genetic potential and so should we revise the amino acid and particulate sulfur immunity to crime oh yeah I think I think it's not just the the genetic potential changing its it's a yearly it's a yearly question we should ask is protein it becomes lower as we have more crystalline amino acids than can be formulated in the diet the diet is changing there's less soybean meal with the lower protein diets and every year we get a better bird so I think it's natural to assess the need and of the most important amino acid the total sulfur amino acids in the diet on a consistent basis and you think it's an important way to save money to reduce margin and so on in our production cost and so on that makes may be absolutely yeah I think going back to your original question from a genotype standpoint I do think there is always a need to revise the total sulfur requirements not because the requirements may be changing per se but we know growth rates are changing and as a result feed intake patterns so what we may have called the starter phase 10 years ago is now something completely different so we are in a need to reduce or concentrate the amount of methane that that bird is allowed to or gonna be able to consume for that starter phase we know we're making a lot of progress of the conversion and all these other parameters well one of those parameters that we were improving is the age to market and by doing so all these phases continue to dwindle and so that's why I think it's important to reassess constantly the both in time and the total sulfur amino acid requirements and you think that would be different from the other amino acids for instance that we might change the ratio between the sign and analyzing who finds also depend depending on this evolution or it would be constant with in relations with the lysine points on what is your feeling on that I don't think it'll be constant I think as dr. Corzo very carefully pointed out we are bringing the bird to market that at a more rapid pace and when we look at the ratios lysine having a almost virtually zero requirement for maintenance that's going to increase the other amino acid needs as a ratio to lysine as this bird is brought to market at a faster pace and we have to continually look at the interactive effects in particularly with Metheny because its first limiting and lysine is second limiting so that they are very closely dependent upon one another and that that information is not in the literature to the extent that it should be we've moved a lot looking at three needle I've seen ratios based on the commercialization of l3 inning in the 1990s but I I go back to the Hickling paper from canadian journal of animal science that showed the classic methania by lysine interactive effects that are different from performance and breast meat yield and i think we need to reassess that as a principle yeah and you think that could be a real sister also according to the growing phase because you say that the total duration of growth has shortened but do you think that some phase are more critical to reassess requirements and other Swanson's absolutely because the the growth phase is shifting so it's coming further back and instead of the critical period you know on the peak of the growth between say 15 to 20 up to 35 days of age and keeps giving it keeps getting earlier and at the same time I think we need to reassess the impact of that starter ratio and that starter level that's needed to have that impact on the finishing bird so for example instead of finishing a starter report whatever the starter phase is 10 days 12 days or 14 days or whatever your first period is continue to grow that bird on a common diet to assess the impact of they start to phase on the finishing phase and exactly make me quality and ask me your performance everything and talking about the factors influencing the requirements you talk about environment you talk about maybe hot conditions compared to temperate condition do you think we need to have advice to the end users you know to recommend different type of ratio and particular amino acids under hot conditions points also well if I may take that one I think there is certainly a need to adjust that one of the things we recognize as a breeding company is that the growth rates are different and their feathering in our birds are different the broiler products that we offer to our customers have different feathering types and we also have a selection between slow and fast feathering and knowing how high the Sistine content of those feathers are that is ultimately going to change the cumulative total sulfur requirement of birds depending on genotype but I don't think it stops there P Andre because I think our industry has evolved now into a phase where we're trying to transition out of antibiotic or through motors and I think that will probably bring in to bear into light a lot more other important amino acids such as three inning or the need to perhaps revise that ratio or perhaps increase it given its well known and documented roles and gut function and new coastal integrity but also the ones like serine glutamine and that perhaps are not commercially available but are also affected by environment as well so you're going to challenge more and more a nutritionist to refine the amino acid requirements you are talking about the low protein diet constants today what is the consequence of this low protein formulation even in lots of countries you know on the demand on the requirement of sulfur amino acids and so on limitations that I see are not just a loss in some performance but you have a very very quick drop-off in meat yields with low protein diets beyond a threshold of maintaining that so you have an imbalance you have more carcass fat being deposited and less tissue accretion from the muscle which is primarily the pectoralis major and minor the breast so with that said the nutrition stops and says okay I can't go any lower but for us it's gonna be up to how do we bring in some non-essential amino acids to go back to exactly what dr. Corzo mentioned what is a carcass composition of this new chicken we have what is the feather composition for amino acids and tried to determine how we could continue to lower protein for the benefits that it has and what that's gonna do also is challenge methionine because as we bring in these other amino acids we keep increasing synthetic methionine more and more and more as each limiting amino acid comes in the formula and in do you think that low protein diets and refining zurich rahman will be affected by the temperature find something by the fact that now some new countries are going moving - well the low protein diets I think I think you have the temperature and I think another thing to consider is in temperature feeding lower protein diets and the impact on protein supply is an excess on an amino acid requirement because there's a lot of classic literature that looks at how the amino acid responses are affected by protein supply in the diet which is going to be less as we go for yeah and that could be an evolution worldwide I would say you mention the replacement on Eid rejection of medication you have the low protein diets and so on so you need to move to revive looking at the low protein diets in in swine for instance people are also taking into account the dietary electrolyte balance you know - because you need to change your mineral supply and so on what do you think about that because I haven't heard about people modifying the da B I think it's really important I think it's really important to look at the complex equation to bring in all the electrolytes to focus on and you have to understand that as we reduce soybean meal our main you know cation with potassium is decreasing on just a linear basis so we we have begun not just adding buffering for de B equation from sodium bicarbonate but also hassium sources in our low protein feeds at the University just to maintain a balance as we add more amino acids and as a gypsy company did you look at that idea we have Andre not so much comparing genotypes but as a function of greater performance because electrolyte balance appears to play a big role on shale quality on embryo viability so all these factors is dr. kik mentioned in terms of soybean inclusion fluctuations are definitely going to impact the way that the way that equation balances out so you've got to be able to have alternative sodium sources alternative potassium sources to be able to balance this equation or from a greater standpoint we can certainly expect some tangible impact if this is not taking 100 you talk about the Breeden what is the impact of the amino acid nutrition for the breeder you know on the growth of the embryo development of the cheeks and so because we often talk about it we separate the requirements I mean as you cry months for broiler different phase we forget about what has been done before what is the impact of the breeder nutrition on the immunity man I mean a severe amount well doctor kids been done a lot of research on that area and the impact of amino acid nutrition on on progeny and I will let him discuss this with us but I like to just quickly answer your question by saying that I think there's definitely an impact of amino acid nutrition on greater performance particularly in the rear face when we are bringing in these birds into production when we are trying to control their body weight and we want to make sure we develop good feathering out in the field one of the main challenges we have as an industry in terms of breeder production is up as optimizing feather cover so that these hens are receptive to males and we can create fertile eggs I think from a parent stock standpoint the Mitanni requirement that all sulphur requirements are extremely important and they're also changing because our we're changing Brawlers the breeder is also a broader that one wants to behave like a brother and so as a result the the intake patterns have changed as well and as such the need to adjust the total sulfur requirement the concentrations in the field yeah absolutely doctor Corzo to add to your ear at other aspect on offspring for example the the protein supply a methionine for the Borla breeder nutrition in terms of progeny was looked at and well there's three papers actually I have dr. Orly since laboratory and and that was some time ago and it was kind of quiet and everybody kind of refocused on on minerals and and other needs of the boiler breeder but very interestingly now we have a number of labs we have we have the group in in Canada and Manitoba we have or Alberta I get I guess and then we have the the group in bog and Eggen and then at Arkansas we've just finished some work as well looking at not just protein supply in the breeder but also protein status in the pullet so up to 22 to 23 four weeks of age not completely changing the diet but completely changing the way that bullets allowed to consume to flesh out and we are seeing in all of those laboratories impacts from bullet nutrition on not just the performance of the offspring or the progeny per se but the meat characteristics in terms of that are interesting to see how huge the effect is it's very interesting and what do you call that epigenetic or howhow you want to term it is something that I think is very young in the field of science but critically important and how we can imprint this offspring for more environmentally friendly protein supply in the future that is a big issue now on the street but again broiler regarding the breast meat divorce and so on and I know that both of you have different ideas on but how can we help people you know to reduce this this issue well I think it is a complex problem that we have it's not easy to manage we did not select our birds with the intention of creating this problem and like other problems that have passed have have occurred in the past like ascites or tibula scunner pleasure we inadvertently while it's selecting for rapid more accessory feed consumption we were not we did not know exactly what else should we be looking at when we realized a problem we had at hand is now that we're doing a very comprehensive selection program against it having said that I think there is things in the meantime that we can do while these selection improvements start taking place they should be starting to take place they're not gonna be fast they will take some years to be selected out they're never going to go to zero either that's I want to set expectations for everybody but it will go to the same levels that you see aside easy says it occurs but is this not a problem but I think that there's that there's obviously we recognized in my particular printing company that faster growth rates ultimately have resulted in the higher incidence of these myopathies so there's ways that we have been experimenting or doing testing interventions on how to lower these incidences and these include super dosing with phytase and looking at antioxidant status and we've also try to slow down the growth rate of birds via lysine manipulation of the second feed being the second feed whether steepest growth of the average daily gain curve typically is that's the steepest part of the curve that's where they accelerate the most and that's where they are creating the most breast meat so we feel that that's probably the vertical segment where we can perhaps manipulate the growth curve and perhaps produce a bird with less incidence we have been successful in some trials at doing that at others we haven't but we have been communicating that to our customers and our industry as results come out and we continue to do so thank you Alex and Mike hard to add a lot to what dr. Corso now just just mentioned but I agree completely with the time of life that their focus in the birds growth pattern and accretion rates so it's makes perfect sense it's a training issue for the nutrition is possible I would say build managers but also cause the nutrition is so absolutely we need 20 vesti eight more and so on because as you say it's not an easy job we need to maintain growth and to reduce incidence ultimately our customers are not our for-profit and they need to be competitive to be able to generate profits and we have to come up with hype recipe yields good feed conversions good average daily gains and they're not gonna do that by feeding suboptimal I mean us in the Tricia so well we expect the incidents in things like wooden breasts to decrease about 10% to 15% per year that's on a percent on a percent basis of that value not so if you're right yeah I just wanna make sure is that the right number is interpreted if you have an incidence of 20% woody breast in the year 2019 based on our selection estimates in the broilers that you will be racing in the year 2020 you can expect anywhere between 18 and 17 percent incidence of wooden ducks okay thank you anything to add my kanji I mean I see the part of the no okay thank you very much guys I appreciate your you keep some time for us