[Music] good afternoon good evening good morning ladies and gentlemen wherever you are first of all i would like to thank all of you for joining this webinar on net energy you are more than 960 registered and actually we see the connection going up and up and up so you are 260 connected yet and do not be frustrated if you cannot ask your own question the chat is there for further discussion a few months ago we organized a series of short videos we called short educational videos to explain the basics of net energy and it's a short series was entitled netting everything you wanted to know about any but were afraid to ask with the famous doctor honorably and the attendance today uh revealed that it's really a famous guy these videos are available on the web.com channel.online we indeed start worthwhile to give easy tools to understand the basics of net energy and now it's time to interact and question our expert we are just pleased to welcome to deja nobly jean spent his whole career uh at the innura now in rating developing science around energy utilization israel and he particularly developed the net energy approach raising any equations that are now used in the field more recently continued by developing any approach in poultry in collaboration for instance with the team of professor mingan cho bob sui sugyal from university of new england in armenia australia to conduct that webinar we have a great pleasure to have one of jean's last phd student now and myself one of his first students so i'm not the expert on the on the topic but we have two experts around today so you can imagine the pressure on our shoulders pierre and i carry this phd on energy value of ddgs in all species and he was really trying educated by john so we remind you that the objective of this webinar is not to give a one hour formal presentation on network this webinar will better address all questions you may still have after the series of short videos on meta energy posted on free channel however to give the context and start this webinar we asked jean to rapidly give the key points or basis of net energy approach for swine and poultry again it will show that pigs and poultry have the same issues and the same benefits moving to any and after john's in production we open the question to all of you through the chat you can start your question at any time feel free there is no stupid question only question to better understand net energy and its challenges moreover only your first name will appear when posting your questions so on the chat so don't be charming and all questions will be either answered directly by jean or pierre or the response will be posted later on on the future platform everything the webinars replay and the answer will be available i would say in a couple of days on the future platform so jean the floor is yours and we start the webinar okay thanks experience for the introduction so good morning good afternoon and good evening to everybody or to all people connected uh also i would thank the beginning of this webinar the addiso organization for this webinar and also for the short educated videos that were published or presented two or three months ago so if you haven't seen these videos yet i encourage you to look at them so anyway i think as indicated by apparently this webinar is mainly uh composed of questions and answers so don't hesitate for that but be just before starting i would give a few slides in order to summarize what was given and the key points about net energy uh in poultry and in pigs so as you can see on that first slide i think uh when we talk about energy utilization we start from gross energy and then we move to d e and to me and then to net energy i will not detail all these uh steps but i will focus mainly today on i think the question will answer all these points about the last part of this diagram uh talking about k which is the ratio between net energy and amy about heat increment and about the calculation and the measurement of net energy which is the addition of energy gain plus fasting reproduction so next slide how do we measure energy gain i think there are different techniques or different methods for doing that i think converting slowdown methods and so on but i think nowadays i think most techniques are based on the calorimetry and more precisely the indirect which we made so what do we do for calculating energy gain in the indirect current method we obtain energy gain as the difference between m intake by the animals minus their reproduction but for measuring this enemy intake and this heat production there are some [Music] points to be careful first we are talking about diets and so the animal should be adapted to the diet i have put five to ten days and i think that's a minimum to adapt an animal to a new diet so uh for measuring for using the indirect kermit method we use so-called respiration chambers which is a closed room and i think it's important uh to adapt the animal to this new environment and that should be at least for one day further afterwards we have you have to measure the heat production per se and i think uh you need at least two or three days or even five days and that should be done under very standardized and representative conditions and uh that's very important uh for interpreting the data afterwards so be careful for instance if you see net energy measurements connected over only one day even less than one day i think you should be very careful in the interpretation of the data so at the same time you measure the animal in the restaurant samples you can measure the intake and at the end net energy is calculated as energy gain plus fasting reproduction so in the short videos fasting reproduction was fully detailed and describe how to obtain these values so what i want to insist at that stage is that measuring net energy is rather complex i think you need equipment you need to calibrate you need very routine methods and that's not easy that's time consuming that's a long-term response i mean you don't get the response only one day you need weeks and even months for measurements and that's expensive and so on and so on so i consider that measuring net energy is more research activity so next slide i will insist on another point which is important and i will talk about that today i think during the questions that's what do we listen or what do we understand by net energy system i think a net energy system is equivalent to a net in that one net energy equation clearly net energy in practical terms is not measured it is calculated from an equation these equations can be obtained according to different methods but usually these equations come from the combination of net energy measurements that are conducted on very well-balanced and variable diets under very controlled standardized and representative conditions so the videos explain that a little bit so which type of models are we using for calculating these equations usually we use linear regression models where net energy is calculated as a function of the amount of digital nutrients in the feed or it is a function of the de or dme content plus some correction factors or it can even be net energy as a function of some indirect measurements such as individual or infrared indicators so clearly net energy and we talked about that today is calculated from an equation next slide so what's the the situation for the two groups of animals we have to deal with today i think for pigs the net energy prediction equations they are available uh they are validated or they have been validated they are quite robust and as a consequence they are today i think widely used in feeding tables and in the field industries all over the world for poetry the situation is a bit different i think there are some equations available but these equations have not been fully validated and one consequence of that but there are also other reasons is that net energy is not much is not yet uh used in practice so that means that in order to be more convincing about using net energy in poetry we should do some additional research next slide for illustrating uh what's the difference between pigs and broilers so on that table i have put some typical ingredients for soy oil corn wheat and soybean meal you know about the chemical conversion of these ingredients which are totally different uh what you can see first is that the ratio between net energy and me is different according to this uh the critical conservation of the ingredients for oil or for full fat sources i mean the efficiency is quite high ninety percent uh for the series is somewhere in the middle eighty percent and for seven meal uh it is much lower about sixty percent but i show that slide mainly to illustrate or to focus on the comparison between pigs and broilers i mean these values were calculated from two sets of equations one uh published by inra for pigs and one published uh by the university of new england in australia for broilers you can see that uh pigs and broilers are behaving very similarly in terms of efficiency of me4 net energy so nowadays we are using net energy very routinely for pigs so why should we uh shouldn't we use also net energy for boilers in the future according to such data so the last slides for this introduction will show what should be done in practice for the feed industry organization so as i said before net energy value of diets and of ingredients is calculated from an equation or a system so the important point there is to decide on one equation or one system and preferably one system that has been validated on diets and learning regions so uh i think i will stress also on one point which is very important is that uh some religious organizations some groups in the world are measuring uh d e or any net energy value of ingredients in my opinion i think there is no need to measure net energy of ingredients but in the case of ingredients what is important is to get d e or mu values or nitrate nutrients which are very quite reliable which have been updated and so on in order to calculate or to include these values afterwards in the net energy equation of last point before moving to the question is that net energy values from different origins i mean different equations different labs and so on cannot be combined you should be very careful about that and so again you need to decide on one system or one equation in order to calculate and to implement net energy in your company so that's all for the introduction that's a summary of the short videos we presented two or three months ago and so now i think we can move to uh questions and we try with pierre and pierre andre to answer all of them almost thank you very much jean so as you say now it's time for the debate and uh because we received quite a lot of questions uh we decided to secure maybe into three parts the debate first one would be back to the basics of any from measurements calculations and so on the second part would be practical use of any in-fit formulation and the third part would be the benefits and consequence of any to assess performance to evaluate affiliatives and so on so let's start the questions and answer by the first part so i would say back to the basics and we have a different different question so i will raise up the questions in front of the screen and we start to to uh to answer so the first question by uh by mark was can you please address the energy cost of deamination why do crystalline amino acids have such high any values relative to intact protein sources oh that's a very technical question i think for starting [Applause] i think the point is that for uh yeah there is some cause of the elimination clearly when you have some protein excess you have some always some deamination but that's normal but the point is that uh for calculating or for evaluating the net energy of crystalline crystalline amino acids it's impossible to to do that experimentally i think uh you cannot include in order to measure the net energy of an ingredient or nutrient that nutrient or that ingredient should be included at at least five or ten percent or even twenty percent that depends on on the nutrient or the ingredient in the case of immunity that's impossible technically and methodologically uh speaking to measure the net energy of crystalline amino acids so for doing that you have to do hypothesis uh i think that's uh i have done that for pigs a long time ago uh and assuming that uh when you use crystalline amino acids uh the diameter rate is much slower than for the total amino acids of the feed of an ingredient and uh the efficiency of femi for net energy of crystalline amino acids is much higher than it should be according to the efficiency of protein for net energy so i have no time for getting into more detail about that that's a very technical question and at the end it doesn't make a big difference to you yes good morning and good afternoon just to complete also and to add one more comment to mark questions uh i would also add that compare with vegetable protein or protein meal uh synthetic amino acids are fully digestible and that also play an important part in the high values in any that this this kind of additive may have in the net energy system there is a one question uh phrase i am sure quite quite often is why is this more difficult to get equations for poultry than for swine oh i think it's the point is we have to look at the history i think uh i would uh i have prepared a few styles for illustrating uh some of the questions that might be uh asked uh the the slide number 17 for instance in in the list uh indicates that uh for uh poultry i think there was a lot of work on net energy a long time ago uh in the 60s 70s and even the 50s after the second world war so that's a long long time ago unfortunately these studies were not followed by application in the field and that's only quite recently that there were new studies conducted on poetry for net energy equation purposes that was the one arduino that was done in arkansas that was done in australia at the uni we have talked a bit about that and that's also in industry and i think nowadays there are a few programs running in the world for going further in net energy equation so uh what i think that's a more or less consequence of the history i think for let's say 30 or 40 years uh poetry nutritionist did not care much about net energy because they were happy with the enemy they were maybe a little bit conservative uh they were not using as many ingredients as uh in the big industry so there were a lot of reasons for not being too excited about uh net energy and poetry so uh today uh there are some new equations uh in order to predict the net energy i think uh the slide number 18 for instance indicates that there is one equation that that is quite recent recently published in in australia by schubert wu and bob squeak i was also implemented in that program a little bit so clearly there is there are some new data coming uh and that should change in the future so uh i think uh there is no reason for or this difference uh apart from the history i would say and the recent uh increase in the number of studies conducted on poetry uh in connection also i don't know what happened for to move for net energy but there are a few reasons for that thank you john there is a more question on the technical aspects and ami for instance ask sorry let me ask a question what about the influence of the soviet voluntary fiber on the net energy many values are calculated using mdf and do not account for the influence of soluble digital fiber can you address this yeah i think again that's a rather technical question i didn't expect but clearly one thing that is very very important when we talk about net energy is that net energy is calculated from the e or me so i guess or i assume that most of the effects of uh fiber level or fiber composition or the in that case here sodium dietary fiber uh will affect uh first uh the d e or the m a content in poetry or in pigs uh and afterwards uh the net energy will be affected according to some various variation of the de or the me value i think the the transition from amy to net energy is not directly affected by the the composition of that of lighter fiber that's mainly the enemy value or the d value in the case of pigs that is affected by a dietary fiber so maybe in the future we have to move to more sophisticated criteria for calculating the net energy of forgetting better equations taking into account such criteria are soluble dietary fiber because there may be some specific effect of dietary fiber on the metabolic utilization of amy but as far as i know there is no information on that yet yes there is maybe not no information yet but in fact it's a quite important question when we talk about gothel it's got functioning and so on you want to add something okay no i would say that i fully agree that some equation take into account neutral detergent fiber especially the work that was published by uh in the mid 90s but for sure i think that we improved the analytical method for the for the fiber in diet and i think that we will have uh convergences uh between the the chemical capabilities and the prediction of net energy but for the moment this this work is very scarce we have still a lot of questions and for instance regarding the type of feed and one question is what is the impact on the any value in complex feed compared with single feed like corn soybean meals uh i think that's again a question of de or me first i think uh when we talk about energy value of diet or formulation packages and so on we assume that the effects are additive there is no interaction so i don't know any data any clear and convincing information indicating that there are interactions between ingredients or between nutrients positive or negative so i would say that the impact of net energy is fully the impact of number of ingredients is fully uh additive and so i don't see any difference between complex and simple diet or single diets so what's the difference in addition to that anyway is that when you are using only i would say two ingredients corn and soybean meal uh it doesn't make a big difference whether you use uh d e m e or net energy i think the you will change it to be the crude protein content or the amino acids level and so on but a little different but when you are using plenty of ingredients which are available on the market or i think there then the the difference between these ingredients or these ingredients are not ranked similarly in the de me or net energy systems so that means that you should use uh i think the advantage of the net energy system is bigger probably when you are using complex diet than very simple diets okay thank you we have quite a lot of questions regarding also the basis you say that most of the equations are based on ame so we talk about how to measure this amb and the first component i would say on the any equation so one question from angelique can i use aae from nir system to calculate the net energy uh yes i think in one of the slides i presented in the introduction uh i said that the net energy can be calculated from any good indicator of the d or the me or the digital nutrients content so so nowadays i mean the equations which are available are only those based on d e or m e i mean d e or any measured values so why not pred using or predicting the d e or the m e value of an ingredient or even a diet according to let's say infrared metals and use that prediction uh for calculating the energy uh yes i truly agree on that but the point is that you should be very you should be very careful uh for instance when the net energy equation is proposed it is proposed with uh amy uh or let's say for pigs i mean the the point is much less important but for uh for poetry you the net energy equations will be based on any values but you should be careful about which amy you are talking about is it i mean it is very popular to use me for zero nitrogen balance so if you use amy for zero natural imbalance uh as a predictor you should use a net energy equation where the me for zero nitrogen balance is used as a predictor so be careful when you use equations uh look at the units look at the definition of the predictors and so on and use the right equations with the right numbers so you should be very careful so why not using infrared values if the infrared are predicting let's say men or ames or ame for me for layers for poetry for for breeders and for i don't know any type of animal so be careful when using net energy equation look at the units look at the predictors do they apply to any type of animals and so on there is a very interesting point so care you want to uh to have a comment yeah i think i fully agree with the point of sean that a lot of questions should be carried on on the on the values of me that you can see there and many many books and many nif values are giving the the metabolisable energy corrected for zero nitrogen balance and you should care that your equation is taking these parameters uh into account and another comment would be that i think that both the idea of of moving to any is to be closest to the animal requirement and to be more precise so nia the precise nutrition values that you can get having an ayah are going in the same way so for me the two strategies are going in the same way moving to any and using the best values the best nutritional values of your raw material that you can get john you want to add something yeah yeah i just want to add a comment maybe i think just because some questions are more focused on poetry i think it's time to to abandon or to move from amy n uh in poultry uh to a more reliable and more representative amy predictor clearly amiens doesn't mean means nothing for poultry i think all the riders all the layers in the world are not on the zero natural balance they are only 50 or 60 of the nitrogen intake that is retaining the body so which should move to a much more representative predictor of amy and i mean the feeding tables unfortunately are mainly based on amen but the touch should be corrected in the future to move to some standardized ame which is more representative of the practical conditions which is quite interesting and uh the basis of the also the formulations are any values of individual ingredients affected when combined with other ingredients from jonathan uh i think that that's we i think we already answered it a bit to that point uh yes there might be some such problems of interactions uh clearly but it is very poorly documented we don't know clearly i have no clear evidence of one ingredient that is very bad or very positive i don't know exactly and i mean one basic principle of formulation of uh preparing diets uh these chord formulations is the principle of additivity uh so maybe there are some interactions and i think that's uh one thing we should look at in the future not for me because i'm too old for that but clearly interactions are very important they shouldn't be ignored in the future but nowadays the information is very poor on that topic and the tools we are using for formulating assuming linear and additivity principles that's a good transition to the next part of the debate but before we organized also small polls so besides the question find you see polls and get your feedback on what's going on and thus you can answer to the post at any time and we will get at the end a global overview of the response to the different questions on the on the polls so do not hesitate to click on the poll section and answer to support the next part of the debate is really focusing on practical use of net energy formulation what are the main limitations constraints for feed formulation and we receive quite a lot of questions regarding the uh the formulation um for instance when the good point from rick here knowing the any values of ingredients is only half of the problem we need to know what the requirements are on any basis as well how do we do that practically we want to answer how i can start i think that's quite easy that has been my proposal for pigs and i think uh and it worked i think uh for part which should be the same we know what is what do you mean by requirement i think it can be a requirement in terms of changes in daily uh energy requirement of poultry or pigs over time or different conditions that's good but that's a good exercise for modeling people i think today what in fact is your need for talking about requirements uh is to to know what's the energy concentration of the feeds you are formulating most of the time the the simple answer about requirements uh because most of the time the animals are fed at libertarian so it's what should be the energy concentration of my feed so for if you are happy i would say with your de or your amy approach for the energy concentrations of the feeds you are the concrete fields you are preparing for your animals uh the the simple way for predicting or estimating the net energy recommendation is to multiply the uh let's say the de uh regulation for base funds or the me by 71 or by 74 percent uh i think that's uh the average efficiency of a standard diet for i mean the ratio between net energy and ee or net energy and amy in pigs that's the same for poultry let's say if your recommendation for a diet is 3000 kilocalories per kilo of feed your new recommendation in terms of net energy will be 3000 multiply by 0.74 which is the average efficiency of a standard uh diet for poultry or for boilers and for pigs what is amazing at the end also is that the average efficiencies of diets are very similar uh in pigs uh and and in birds uh and i also i would say even in fish there are different most monogastrics are using energy very similarly and uh they use me4 or d for net energy very similarly so very simple you multiply your d or your me by a constant factor thank you you want to write a comment yeah i think that to to complete the comment of jean i would i would say to the audience that very nice work taking this uh this aspect i've been already published i think for bro for broilers for example to a work from dr sweek from new england or for swine with a work done by ann stein and i would also add a comment that is maybe more a question as well but why not take a chance of any system to [Music] try to found what are the the extra requirement in non-standard condition i would say like under heat stress or under sanitary challenge and things like that that's uh maybe more a comment or question for the for the for the scientific the scientists around but it could be a nice opportunity i think just to complete the point that was raised by by care i think uh that's i think that should be less equation of uh feed value than requirements of animals i think i can imagine that people are talking uh thinking about what should be the maintenance requirement should they be changed according to the sanitary according to your environment and so so that's more equation of requirements than the question of feed value so both should join at the end clearly so we have uh we have a lot of questions on the practice you know on the the practice practical switch from amy twain and for instance oh ask a question any of ingredients is used in feed formulation not any of the types however the any value of the ingredient is often calculated using prediction equations arising from the composition from the different series of diets and so on do you see then that those equations used in ingredients provide reliable values i think it's the basis of a lot of development of system i don't understand really the point but because i think what should be done when you do this cause formulation is that you start from the energy values of your ingredients and you assume that the values are additive and the software will tell you what should be the combination of the ingredients in order to achieve an energy value a targeted energy value of the diet so uh i think the the clearly the energy value are additive and you don't need to check at the end the energy value of the equation or the net energy of the diets when you if you assume that the system is fully additive and you use only the one equation for calculating the energy value of all the ingredients you are you have in your matrix uh the net energy value uh calculated by the additivity of the ingredients should be exactly the same as the energy value the net energy that you calculated uh on the full diet i think i i don't underst unless i don't understand the point but uh i think i don't see any problem there yeah we have a lot of questions about ingredients and diets and for instance uh there is here edema asking questions any advice what to do when shifting from a b to any where can i get reliable any values of ingredients uh any advice i think the point is that for that you you need to to to get a net energy value of ingredients that's the unique to that as far as i know uh most recent uh say recent i mean published over the last 15 or 20 years feeding tables provide net energy value of ingredients for pigs not for poultry yet so in the case of pigs inroad tables are producing net energy brazilian tables are you providing net energy nrc 2012 is providing net energy fed now tables with cdb tables so most uh i would say big tables uh uh used for uh for fix are providing net energy value of ingredients so uh that's uh the point uh in the case of pigs i think i have one interesting comment to give i think you can uh slide number 29 uh sometime a few years ago we produced uh software where software that is able to recalculate and to correct i would say the energy value of any ingredients that is available in the world for recalculating its net energy value so so that's one example so clearly uh the information about net energy of ingredients is available in filling tables one thing but the feeding tables provide i would say fixed uh net energy values for one ingredient and everybody knows that the each ingredient has variable characteristics over time and so on and so on or between cycles between uh ships and so uh it's important afterwards try to to have some correction or some adaptation of the energy values according to the actual composition of the ingredient and so that's that's where in the case of pigs the evap software is able uh to recalculate uh in the case of poetry uh there is nothing really equivalent yet apart from i would say uh also one slide slime number thirty which is a production of the french feed feeding tables of database are on the feet and this this software which is just on coming i mean it's not fully fully uh finalized but it's uh close to the end i think provides a net energy of any values in the case of poetry according to the chemical condition of the ingredient so clearly uh there are a lot of values so the question was more general i think if you want to move from amy to net energy the first thing is that you need net energy values of ingredients but afterwards how to do that i think uh that's rather easy you can recalculate or estimate your net energy values of all your ingredients in the matrix according to the equations or according to the feeding tables and scratch on and one thing is that at the beginning you you shouldn't formulate according to net energy immediately i think it's better to keep on formulating on the software you are using or the principle or the system you are using tme and yen and so on and so on and afterwards you get negative value according to what you are using but progressively you change you look at the net energy values you are obtaining uh and progressively you change to net energy value system so we could spend hours on that in order how to move from me to net energy from d to net ng but i would say that's very easy and you should be confident on the net energy value equations which are available uh both for for pigs and also for poultry or for broilers recently and even laying ends so uh the information is getting more important and more available and that should be easy to move to net energy uh in all cases so maybe cares or someone how to practically implement the things and claire for instance ask a question if i want what is the first thing to implement what is your advice i think that that's the question i answered just before maybe uh my answer was very long so what you need first is to to establish your net energy value of ingredients so you have to choose one net energy system one net energy equation that is available that is uh that has been validated uh for people interested in that i i can give some advice that's up to them but uh clearly the the choice is rather limited anyway so the point is to get net energy value of ingredients in your matrix so that's the first thing to do clearly you cannot use a net system without getting net energy value but what is important at the same time is uh to use that opportunity of moving to a net new system uh to update the d e or the m e values of the ingredients you are using because i have seen so many times here in my trips that people many people don't change their don't adapt their energy values according to changes in chemical composition according to changes in technology of the preparation of the ingredients and so on so it's very important uh before moving to net energy to be sure and to be very clear and confident about the ge or the me values you have been using so far so uh the first i would say the first point would be before moving to net energy to be sure about the de or dma predictors the point uh we have a lot of questions also on the uh the drivers getting us the animal side and i think it will be uh the topic for the for the next part so i just remind you there is a poll now for the second part of the debate you can answer to the questions just to follow how you get into this uh this debate so the last part is uh now the key questions the benefits and the consequence of a need to assess performance to assess the effect of realities and so on to develop sustainability and so on so we've got a lot of questions and just before i said one of the key questions on the e system from different people from different parts of the world is the animal part so for instance do you think it is necessary studies about any requirements maintenance there is some people knowing very well your work jean asking the question about uh what about any for piglets for instance let's say uh an emote from post-winning to 50-20 kilo i can just show the question from raphael here he progresses and he for bitless let's say animal from winnie to 15 20 kilo and uh that's a question and the same way i've got a question from gestation and rapper and like himself for example oh yes i think uh the the the literature on these uh aspects of uh energy values according to body weight to stages of production also and so on uh is the command it's more documented in pigs probably than in poetry i think uh uh for instance i just uh if i will look at the slide number 20 i have probably shown hundreds of times in the over time slide number 22 sorry so on that slide uh i clearly indicate that the energy the directivity in pigs is quite different in growing pigs and in other pigs in a way that when you have very fibrous diets and very fabulous ingredients you have a big difference between other pigs and growing pigs so the question there was about piglets i think piglets are probably very close to growing pig and lactating cells i think that was also included in the question uh are probably rather close to other pigs so in the principle or in theory there should be as much energy or as many energy values of your stages of production uh in the case of pigs but you have to be very practical at the end i think you cannot provide an ingredient i mean today maybe in 10 years time i i can i think that that should be a big progress and a good progress for the future uh but nowadays i think you have to split between uh at least in the case of peaks between two major stages of production so uh in the case of riders uh i would say that or poultry i would say that that would be the same i think the the slide number i would say the slime number let's have a look uh 23 the slide number 23 indicates that the energy directivity the main tabula's ability here is a bit different between the roosters uh broilers and laying heads so the difference is uh not that big between the two main stages of production various and laying end but it is significant so that means that the uh me values in various should be attributed to the any values in language should be a little bit higher than employers i mean uh roosters they are not raised for production but they are a good model anyway but what we should be careful is that many uh enemy values have been obtained in roosters so and that means that roosters uh uh represent maybe some oversee any overestimation of the actual enemy values or fits when fed to broilers and layers but at the end afterwards when you talk about net energy clearly net energy is calculated from an equation so in the case of peaks we showed that the net energy equation is applicable at any stage of production including the including adult cells and including pigs varying body weight between 50 and 150 kilobytes away so you can use the same equation in the in the prediction of net energy but you have to use uh different predictors for the entire equation in terms of d content which we will be different between south transcends and growing pigs and that should be also the same for in the poultry field but that is not yet fully documented okay you want to add something um yes i just want to to complete the answer of john uh and to answer to rafa uh the the question was also based on on requirement and and i pointed out that for requirement you you still have to take the requirement that you have in in me and apply a coefficient so 71 for for peaks to to get the requirement for for for for pigs at any stage there is a lot of questions about the economical value and the the benefit of moving from med to 20. but from both both of you jean and can you just summarize what could be the benefits classically and depending baby on the type of that composition moving from the mutually i would say that the first benefit of moving from dme to to to net energy is to get a more precise and more representative energy predictor or energy estimation of the true energy value of the feed so that means that according to the and that has been illustrated a lot in the videos clearly uh when you have a good uh estimate and of the true energy value of feed you have also a good estimate of the response of the animals behind so um basically uh the the major point of using the net energy system is to be closer to the true energy value of the feed and also then to the true response of the animals behind that so that's the major point afterwards uh from an economical point of view i think uh the the i think clearly net energy value may provide cheaper diets sometimes but also sometimes the the diet will be with the same cost as with the de or the me that depends very much on the context the price of the ingredients and the price clearly i just want to show one example in the slide number 16 that was prepared we we can see that when you move from the net energy from the amy system to a net energy system in pigs according to the cost of the price of soy the one major consequence of moving from amy to net energy was to obtain a lower cp level in the feed so by doing that you reduce the cp level in the diet and you get i would say greener uh that is uh quite uh interesting these days i think that's one point uh but the the price i mean the the consequence is quite different and the price could not be higher because on average you get a better accuracy of the true energy value of the feed the better response more consistency in the response of the animals and so on so the price is never higher but it can be lower sometimes according to the the price of the ingredients and in that case uh changing from me or d to net energy is affecting the the cp content of the diet so that means the level of inclusion of an amino acid of synthetic amino acids will change so the price of the amino acids is a major determinant for using that energy system and getting cheaper diets you want to compliment on the poultry side no i i think that the the trend will be will be similar in uh in pool tree than it was in in swine maybe the the the differences and as i talk especially in the in the cp resolution will not be uh so important because we we saw already a lot of publication that suggests that you cannot reduce the cp content of poopy diet as uh it was done previously for swine but i i fully agree that any system for poultry and for swine are a really sustainable method for uh for improvement of profit and of of the of the planet and the pollution issues uh with animal production and and overall you increase the the animal protein production sustainability there is a lot of questions also about the the way any uh can can help in uh not modeling but predicting the best performance of the animal what is your your first feeling on that so the adequation between the uh i think i already answered to that point in the videos where i showed different uh a few charts but there are plenty indicating that clearly net energy was a much better predictor of the performance of the animals especially if you work with diets or you have to to play with the fat content of the feet or to protein levels in the field i mean if you have some opportunities to include fat or you have also opportunities or constraints or legislations for changing the cp levels of the feed clearly you need to move to net energy uh i don't want to to repeat what has been said in the videos but clearly net energy is the best way uh to predict performance in the case of developing models yes that's the same the the the the models should be based on net energy and for instance the the models that were that have been produced by ira the name is uh innova clock we are based on net energy uh you cannot ignore that very important step in energetization clearly that's the only way and this net energy probably will be improved in the future uh i guess uh and uh you need uh that uh net energy uh inclusion uh in these models and for me i guess that net energy will be improved so in order to improve the models thank you very much to add something yeah i think that just to to complement on the on the poultry side um for sure swine is much more uh in advance compared with with brawlers i i i think especially in in the modeling purposes like in harper is is a very well modeled for for animal prediction in swine we do not have yet a similar tool in poultry but to share an experiment uh we made some performance with amy and any system in broilers and we saw that the capabilities of of any to predict animal performance where two times higher in any system compared with me so there is a very important potential on that okay there is a related question on that and rob as a question current broader genetics respond much more to amino acids than to energy how does that fit with any into the link with brighter performance think that's uh very embarrassing questions uh clearly yeah i accept that animals respond to maybe more to amino acids because i mean the birds are selected they are raised for depositing protein and so clearly amino acid supply is a very important uh pusher in the system [Music] so i think again that that's the general uh trend is that for evaluating the energy the true energy value of feeds it's better to be as close as possible to that true energy value and clearly amy is quite far from the final energetization of energy so it's better to to move to net energy in order to only to be closer to the true energy value of the field and so if you are getting closer to the true energy value of the field uh you can predict and the the performance much better than if you are using a system that is affected uh by the dietary nutrients which are contained in dme so the biggest advantage of net energy is to take into account the specific effects of nutrients which are included in the overall concept of amy so me is uh it's good it might depend in the case of portrayal which i mean you are using but clearly you should move to net energy as quick as possible just take as an example we have several questions on the fit technology the link between any the denomination and fit technology and just as an example here one from enrich do you have any results on the influence of hydrothermal processing of certain raw materials like barley for instance on the any content in the processed barley or other processed grain and i've got several questions on the free treatment pelleting hydrothermal conditioning okay let's move to the slide number 25 [Music] which where that's an example slide number 25 yes first the principle is that pelleting or i mean technological treatment will firstly affect the de or the emi values that's the the main purpose of any technical technological treatment is to change the availability of the nutrients within the gut so it will affect the de or dme or maybe the rate of passage or the uh i mean the availability of uh starch in uh quicker and slower and so you would change the first what occurs within the gut it's easy so the that means that the d e or d me as illustrated on that uh slide here where we compare mash and that clearly uh the pelleting for instance uh or any extrusion or any thermal and physical treatment will improve usually the de or the me values so far i think we have to accept that the de or the me is changed according to the mode of presentation or the mode of preparation of the field and you can use only the same equation for calculating the net energy according to this new d de oro values produced by the technology maybe for the future and that's the same for enzymes and for probiotics and also for this all these additives maybe that's a new area of studies i think maybe the metabolism ability or further the metabolic utilization of amy will be also affected by this technology but as far as i know there is very little information about the impact of technology on the so-called k-value or the me the efficiency of me for net energy i think it would be already a great step a greater move to include in your matrix in your feeding tables uh different energy values i mean de or me values according to the technology or according to i mean technology in the female but also technology has some additives effects and so on in the matrix uh and so far because there is no more information available you can use the same equation but with different de orange values so clearly more work to do and here you want to uh to add some points on that yeah yeah i think that it's a large area of science that we have to to with and and i would also stress that i fully agree with jean that in many situations we have a feed formulation matrix uh with values of me and we even don't know if the values have been measured with a methodology [Music] of animal feeding using laser mash or pellets and that as you can see may affect in a quite quite a large way the the values already of the e m e uh of the of the ingredients i i think uh now we are also uh having quite a lot of questions about the the any any evaluation of additives and so on and for instance i will take one of the recent questions here from ronnie how can we determine the any value for poultry to synthetic amino acids can we do it with any equation developed for diets and ingredients because clearly there is a lot of questions about the additive any value yeah i think i already answered for the synthetic amino acids are at the beginning of the webinar i mean for instance in the inroad feeding tables and in different documents we have indicated the way to calculate the the net energy value of significance in the case of pigs uh i think we can do the same for for poultry uh but anyway as i stress on that point it's impossible technically to measure the net energy value of synthetic amino acids in order to validate the calculation with some hypotheses that have been done for for pigs and that the same hypothesis could be used also for poetry so uh for if the person has a question a specific question about how to calculate the net energy value of cd amulet ambulation he may send me an email and i will tell him how to play yeah sure you will have to answer to many more questions when i see the list sometimes i try just to pick up some examples there is also a theory of question on the animal part and for instance quite an interesting one here here from lamia how can we use this technology methodology any for measuring the energy cost of other physiological mechanisms like uh metabolism inflammation and we have questions also on the on gut functioning and so is that a good way net energy to measure that part of the physiology of the animal i think the the problem is not net energy per se uh it's the problem of uh using that technology which is uh in direct calorimetry uh for i mean the entire crime commercial principle uh consists in uh measuring uh high the total reproduction over the day but i think uh you should also look at the dynamics our feet production over the day according to different events occurring uh within the animal i mean the feeds uh the body temperature the change in immunological levels and uh inflammation so looking at the dynamic is very very even the physical activity of the animal so uh it's from my point of view uh the indirect commentary has been used for different purposes one of them is measuring of the the net energy value of it but i would say 90 percent of our 80 percent of the interest of indirect commentary is to look at what occurs within the animal for independently of the feed and that concerns the what are the requirements on a basic and controlled and very nice situation but all the main interest is to be able to stimulate conditions where the health status is getting a bit bad or the temperature is changing the the health status is changing a lot and uh the dynamics of the nutrients in the gut is changed according let's say technology so clearly uh in the recommendatory is good uh and i have visited a few facilities in the world working using indirect commentary but what i would say or what i would suggest as an old guy in the area is to say that don't use your indirect recommendation measurements to produce net energy value of ingredients use your internal regulatory equipment for looking at the response of the response of the animals in terms of food production changes in metabolism dynamics of metabolism during the day during week during production stage over time and that will be much more profitable for science and for applications afterwards good point good point okay or maybe uh yeah i would i would just add a comment and i fully agree with rondo blair and i would say that to to all the scientists around that i think that we do not dig enough in the in the area of of human nutrition or human health and for sure in hospital in direct calorimetry is already used to evaluate the cost of disease for for human and and there is many many studies looking at the impact of some disease on the on the heat production of of human and i think that it's an area that we have to to consider in our future richer with research in animal nutrition or in animal science so we have a lot of questions again on those realities that for instance a good question here what about the effect of fiber degrading enzymes on any of ingredients [Music] yeah yeah i think uh i think in the videos i i as far as remember because that was produced some time ago already we had a slide on a trial that was conducted somewhere in asia looking at the effect of the addition of enzymes in this piece enzymes on energization both uh that was done in various both at the me value and also at the any value as far as remember what we obtained was clearly that the by putting enzymes in the feed we improve a little bit the enemy value as you know many that has been demonstrated and shown and obtained in many many trials so over the last 10 or 15 years which was interesting is that the the k value or the net energy of rb was also improved not to a very high extent but what was at the end the the point is was that the combination of a higher emi value and a higher k value of dme uh produced a net energy value with the enzyme supplemented diets which was significantly higher than the uh than the diets without the enzymes so again there are some opportunities today to uh to look at first at the energy net energy value of uh i would say normal feeds uh but i think most of the improvement and most of the work to be done in the future for for net energy and the use of indirect commentary should be concentrated on these specific effects of some additives or some substances that are added to the feed and they may change the the d e or the any value that depends on the species you are dealing with but also they may affect the ratio between net energy and ali so clearly yes there is some interest in uh using the net energy and the indirect metry technique to look at these specific effects of let's say enzymes or probiotics or any substance that would affect the gut health and that will affect the microbes microbiota in the gut okay i see you yeah yeah i agree i agree with jean in in nsp enzyme area we have focused a lot on the capabilities of this product to release some nutrients from the feed but we have not uh expertised that much the the impact of this on the cost of the of the of the digestion process and i think that it's uh it's uh it's an area still to explore and i would add the comment that it's also an area to explore for probiotic prebiotic and and many other additives and for sure it is a virgin area of science or quite so i think we have a lot of questions but don't worry and we will respond to all the questions maybe to uh to end the debate because we have already uh passed the time i will start i will take the last question for instance how do you expect the enemy to change in the future i'm considering the change in genetics uh selection for linear or types higher efficiency and so on would that be uh more important than what we have faced before with a b and d for instance uh i i i i'm not very concerned about uh the impact of changing the genetics on the uh [Music] d e or amy or any change i think uh we have we have shown in different studies in pigs that the k value was unchanged much according to the genotype of the pigs and anyway if there would be some change due to genetics when we are dealing with energy value of feeds and we are dealing mainly with energy value of ingredients we are interested in getting a hierarchy between the ingredients we have in your silos or you can buy so whatever is the absolute net energy value of the feed may be due to some genetic change if as far as the hierarchy between the feet is not changed between different genetic lines i don't care what is important is ranking the ingredients and net energy clearly is a better way of ranking the ingredients than amy i mean the program anyway is the same with amy it should should change the enemy should be any value change with genetics uh and uh yes maybe but uh i prefer to consider the net energy value instead of d e or m e uh first and uh if the ranking is not changed according to a genetic level i don't know so uh maybe the answer is not very clear but uh clearly uh i want to mention that uh don't care don't don't be disturbed by the rapid changes in genetic levels what is important is getting a good energy systems that ranks correctly even the absolute value may be changed a little bit over time with genetic level changes good point so we have largely overpassed the initial time allocated to our webinar but i'm sure that you all join me and agree that the topic was quite exciting and we've received so many questions that we could not answer directly don't forget also the last poll of today will be now so you go on the poll section and you can answer to the questions and now it's time to to close and to thanks uh jean-noble and kerkozenet for their excellent contribution and i would say also to thank all all of you for your questions and interaction and you will see in the response that we will group the topics and so on it's very very interesting to see how many people from different parts of the world are asking a question regarding similar issues and so on if you have not watched the uh theory of short educational video on netenergy i just say just go on fitch channel and you will be able to re-recheck the basics and so on uh as explained by uh by john and we continue that idea of a short educational video and the next one will concern palatability so to everybody best regard take care in this so special sanitary situation and uh see you next time in a couple of weeks thank you thank you guys thank you everybody bye bye bye bye thank you very much bye