[Music] good morning good afternoon good evening to all of you wherever you are ladies and gentlemen welcome to our new live webinar today and I should say also to your TV program fit channel dot online as often as possible we have the opportunity to address some of your concerns from the practical issue to its scientific explanation who is expert from all over the world from science as well from the industry or end-users and I would say do not hesitate to propose also topics for al-fatihah webinars each revenue webinar starts with the introduction on the topic addressing the fundamental issue with the science but also the practical issue with some field representatives and a roundtable will allow you to ask openly questions during the year so with the webinar to our invitees so I remind you you have at any time the possibility to ask questions do not forget also to visit your free channel dot online platform where you will be able to revisit recent events such as the poultry science Association meeting last July in Orlando and it will be shortly on the platform with a video on the oxidative stress recessions you will have also saw videos on the EC conference oukitel seminar held in Bangkok last October so got else international seminar and also you will have the possibility to revisit your live webinar on mid quality organized last October addressing issues on three plus and mid colo stability and I would say thousands who were disappointed not to be able to ask a question during that webinar we have worked hard to solve the technical issue so I hope this time it will work fine and if you want and I can say also if you want to be interviewed or post on the feature under platform do not hesitate to contact us it is our fifth fictional live webinar today and we are pleased to welcome lot of encryption registration people and I just remind you again that you can post any question at any time on the platform and if we have no time to answer to all questions we will answer later on on the fictional mailbox so formulating amino acid beyond building blocks that's it topic of our live webinar today many Congress and seminar have addressed issue around the amino acids beyond building blocks it concerns the billions of protein deposition the muscle development essaouira prediction it could be the role of amino acids on the immunities or amino acids on the gut functioning it can be as a role also of amino acid on appetite and take control or even on the meat quality and carcass quality so there are a lot of scientific progress but how to take into account all those progress in the feed formulations that it could an important point and there is also an important aspect today and we are all concerned by the sustainability of the animal protein production and we want to reduce the nitrogen expression for that reducing the dietary protein content is a nice possibility to reduce the nitrogen equation however as I said before to take into account all those present developments when formulating on dietary - eat eat so I would say sometimes it's a big issue and we will try to discuss today about this issue I'm pleased to welcome to the around the table - well-known scientist and we start with dr. Yap van million from INRA and agar campus waste a train in France as director of the bigges mix research unit which stands for piggles for Physiology environment genetics and animal breeding and I think it's important to consider that not only the animal that we consult also we consider also the animal breeding systems and he has also a lot of expertise on developing models on nutrient metabolism and amino acid metabolism and professor my kid from Arkansas University in USA as an expert on amino acid and also as director of a center of excellence of poultry science and is well-known also on the amine acid recommendations and Amelia's in knowledge and I also a welcome lane Vig Baldus from CAG in on skype as representative of the free user and feed formulation sector because they are at the first line I would say to take into account all we will discussed and all we have worked on to formulation so Len can you precise a little bit more your positions within Cargill my in cargo payments and addiction in Europe which means that I am responsible for all formulation activities across species as well responsible for our laboratory activities then formulation and cargo payments and nutrition doesn't mean just to push on the bottles and send formulas to plants but also to design and I would say create the best formula which meet expectations of of the customer and the customer can at the end be the farmer it can be a female but that's my role in this to coordinate but also train the team members and you know taking care that we deliver what our customers expect welcome lady thank you and I suggest to first focus on defining what do we mean by amino acid requirements or maybe I'm sure that you will address that requirements a issue but at least what do we mean by requirements and I think to start the discussion I think it's important to ask Jane Lane what what were presence requirements for the feet formulator the requirements are always connected to the goal or the customer want to achieve so for example requirement will be different if a customer is going for daily gain or for feed conversion or in broiler production less meat percentage so it's always connected to the goal what the customer what the final user wants to achieve and it also is different between feed mills and completely integrated companies for example because they are judged on different aspects of it it's important time to reconsider that your breakevens the requirements met may be asking yep but what do mean requirements of response of the animals to as a scientist well well to a scientist anything also in practical feed formulation impractically formulation we we express feed values and nutrient requirements they are based on the system you you formulate based on a net energy system or a metabolizable energy system or standardized ileal digestible amino acids the system so that's the the main point we have to decide what system are you going to use because what we want to do is we want to express feed value and an animal requirement on the same level you cannot mix net energy requirement with the metabolizable energy value same thing for amino acids so it is in fact a compromise between an attribute that you can as a property that you can attribute to a diet or to a feed ingredient and a property that you can attribute to an animal and we have to find a compromise doing so so that's very important you cannot make systems systems are have to be unique and established both on the requirement side and on the value side and just as an example to illustrate what we can think of in terms of requirement on the graph you see a response of pigs to the failing to lysine supply in terms of daily gain and what you see here individual dots mean individual animals and I'll just let the audience think about what in their view is the requirement of that animal with the value each Clayton with the variability among animals now in a few you can of course apply statistics to this and then on the next two graphs next to two lines you see two statistical models that can apply to to to look curve and you see that they differ quite extensively and in the way they express a requirement on the red line it's a classical broken line curve analysis where the requirement would be 68% and you can see that as soon as you're below that requirement performance the clients the blue curve is curved in their response and you can see that the requirement is much higher so are we really interested interested in requirements or are we interested in the response to the animal because you can see that below seventy three seventy - how much - how much performance do you lose so is it requirement or is it response that's interesting question and also I'm sure Lane will have some comments on the benefits and economic benefits on on that mic maybe on on that issue we talked about the requirements on the objectives I would say but what about the the model and what about the issue and projects we want absolutely and it's been well said by both Lynn and Yap the the model is indication statistically to give us an idea where the response is occurring what we have to rely on are the production functions of interest what the producer needs to have a spec on because you only have one number in feed formulation and that has to be an economic optimum so I really like the way the conversation is started here today in that we're really not looking at response or a requirement we're looking at what response is needed to give us the economic optimum in that and it varies depending upon if we have the high meat yield versus focusing on feed conversion or calorie conversion so depending upon the bird depending upon the economics we need to take that statistical model and backtrack into feed formulation for a good number it's good point when you show the graph with a different objective and I'm sure that Lane when we talk about objectives as a different feeling from the of a different thing I would say a practical feeling on how to use the amino acids so maybe your lane can you comment a little bit further behind the mic on the objectives and requirements are never I would say aesthetic but they will be adjusted to to the needs of the customers like you mentioned the whole bird production or sales of all birds versus best meats even in counties where whole birds are produced and sold people might have to go to differentiate to deliver a better carcass then the competition is doing and then one aspect of that is breast meat then they are not the breast meat percentage is not measured but still important to to achieve a better quality of all birds by which they can differentiate compared to competition and and and and therefore it it's always it all starts please the discussion with the customer what do they want to achieve where are they judged it can be that they are just judged on the 100 kilo price of defeat then then you use other requirements then if they are judged on feed conversion which is very typical for feed mills who shall feed but integrators who also own the slaughterhouse there the carcass yield or the cost per kilo of production is much more important or the output of the slaughtering plant or so the daily gain might be more important sort in one day earlier more birds per year and the better utilization of the slaughtering house so yeah thanks Elaine so talking about three crayons you have the model importance you have the objectives and the practical utilizations I wanted to also address the question to someone else he's a bit better from me in Ryan in France with in charge of duck nutrition's and mid quality about what is the situation in the duck nutrition regarding amino acid requirements and I did I've realized this interview last week at in Ryan tour so let's listen to what Elizabeth said about harmony acids requirement in in in Ducks so I'm pleased to welcome Elizabeth visor from in Ryan tour who is in charge of waterfowl production and particularly on poultry meat quality issues and regarding the topic about amino acid formulation beyond building blocks I'm quite interested by how we consider in fact Ducks in that perspective of amino acid formulation and my first question would be what are the main difference between broiler and regarding the amino acid well the formulation with amino acid for ducks you must take into account that there are different species and different genotypes of ducks so to produce meat of course so picking Muscovy and the crowd spread between these two species the music and these different species have different growth rate and different body development so you will not have the same requirements regarding the different rearing period so the growing the starting do the starting the growing and finishing periods but of course by now the requirements for the essential amino acids so lysine methionine tryptophan and hernán are well-known for mystics for post type of breeds taken and Moscow and the cross bride yes and we currently formulate in digestible immunised basis and we say in broiler or layer productions what about the situation in in in Turks and do we know the digestibility difference between ducks and and and poultry and broiler I would say so until now the formulation with amino acids you must take into account the total amino acids for ducks you can use the coefficients which have been determined for broiler chickens but there are various studies who showed that these coefficients are lower for ducks by comparison with the broiler chickens well there is now a study a recent study who determined the optimum lies in digestible lysine level 4 starting Android I'd diets but only for the peck index and what about because there are much longer period of of breeding I would say in in Dirk's what about the digestibility for finishing drugs for and zone you see catch-up much more compared to broiler when they are older no no it is always lower the values are always lower than that which have been determined for chicken typically in animal protein production we talk about sustainability and one of the key point is reducing the dietary protein content so trying to formulate with much lower protein diets what is the situation regarding duck nutrition so the decreasing concentration of protein in diets was tested if effect yes so for muscovy ducks during the finishing periods it was shown that it was possible to decrease the protein content from 15 to 12 point four percent of course by keeping the concentration of essential amino acids according to the requirements of the ex and recently we also found a study who showed that during the growing period for peck index so that means between 14 to 35 days of age it was also possible to decrease the protein content in the diet from 70% 17 percent to fifty fifty percent fifty point four F I think but also by keeping the the amino acid yes not not although an amino acid with the same concentration for the different diets what do you think about your formulation taking into account additional benefits of immunity beyond their requirement for grows or for prediction find zones like when we talk about sulfur amino acid and antioxidant capacities or training an immune capacity and so on how do you think we should take into account these additional benefits I would say in amino acid formulation the only parameter parameter which was taken into account in these studies on amino acids was the body composition so mainly the fatness and meat yield but the effects of the different levels of amino acids in the diet did not investigated the effects on the meat quality working on drugs in fact you were I would say in Europe quite a lot of the production but also in China or Asia and what are the main difference between with a European type of production and the Asian type of prediction by now I think that in Europe the breeders have more developed ducks with high body weight and high meat yield because we cut we a lot the carcasses and consumers really want to have quite a high mathilde but when you go to Asia people use the carcasses the wall carcasses to prepare the famous roasted PEC index and they they want to have they do not take so much into account the materials they really want to have a skin with a lot of super Kittanning was fat in order to have a crispy taste yes yes crispy skin when it is roasted so it's quite a big difference on and do they consider the immunity nutrition the same oh yes yes yes of course particularly for the page index which are now slaughtered at very early age between 35 42 days of age so they index the problem is that the breast meat is going to develop very late during the development of the world body development but for the a.cian consumers what is interesting is to have really this skin and the business fat fat fat carcasses so now with the the lines they have selected for very high growth rate they don't take into account so much the press material as you can have in Europe ok and last question maybe and typically for French people I would say we talk about you know the foie gras fatty liver what is the requirement when we talk about amino acids and this type of lipid deposition everything I will say that the period which is quite sensitive is during the restriction phase just before the preparation to overfeeding phase so in the during this restriction period you have to be careful with the amino acid providing in the diet ok thank you very much Elizabeth [Music] so looking at another species on those objectives and requirements like the Turks with the composition caucus composition fat fatty liver and so on is quite interesting but might maybe after the modern after the objective the carcass objective and so on what about the effect on the genotype effect of age and so on on the amino acid requirement sure we've been looking at valine needs and we focused on the Cobb female bird before we embarked in some of these studies the first thing we had to do was look at the literature and we standardized some what the the table that's presented will show the different valine to the lysine responses in male Brewers only now we took the liberty to take all of the literature and some of which did not look at ideal protein concepts they looked at maximal valine responses so you have to be careful in how you interpret that but we expressed everything back to digestible level and then we're I showed at the lysine which could underestimate some of those responses for valine but it gives you a apples to apples comparison of the literature and there are a few studies that are below and above what we consider say in the low seventies to below that in the upper upper 70s to the 80s but for the most part our experimentation is going to run from low 70s to upper 70s which gives you a pretty good response curve as we discussed earlier to try and pinpoint the valine responses in some of the past research that we did the footnotes in the work by Thornton she did her complete master's thesis on valine needs and a growing ruler and the first response was down towards the 70 which was statistically the highest response we got and we got no quadratic responses after that but only linear so we have the bottom to the top and and there's some variation there so particularly with this amino acid we still have a lot to learn and we're currently investigating that at the University of Arkansas I think it's interesting to look at the amino acid requirement and what about the relationship with the composition of the tissue the composition the amino acids which are deposited in fact yeah yeah these are basically the building blocks of protein and when we think about animal protein we typically think of it's one protein but there are many many proteins different proteins in the animal and on the slide you see the composition of different proteins for the six amino acids that we have that are most limiting and most diets and you can see that the for instance muscle has a specific composition but hair and feathers have a completely different composition especially in terms of lysine much lower in lysine and very high in cysteine and dodging secretions typically a rather low compared to to muscle so so they have different compositions what you also have to take into into account the the way these proteins are being built and rebuilt and renewed differs for instance protein turnover is very high for four from you scenes and an intestinal proteins where it is much lower in muscle and of course virtually in a inexistent in hair and you lose hair and feathers but you don't renew them once they are once they are made so we have to take into account that there's not one animal protein one and and even in muscle if you look at muscle composition muscle is composed of many proteins mysoline acting's are acting are the most important one and you can see that also myosin and actin don't have very different compositions and the there's not a protein collagen which is can be quite important in animal production it has very low in these six amino acids so the way the animal is depositing amino acids well is it depositing Muslim with myosin actin or is it depositing carnitine collagen and if we have a limiting supply of an amino acid what protein will he deposit what will come first will the animal make priorities it goes back to the objective in fact depending on the type of muscle you are targeting obviously maybe the myosin actin the ratio is not the same and maybe the needs of amino acid would be different absolutely and in to go further a little bit on on determining requirements we can determine requirements based on an empirical approach where we look at some response criterion average daily gain profit through an amino acid we can also have a look at the many wasted requirements using a factorial approach where basically we want to decompose all the elements of the requirement and on the slides you see a decomposition of amino acid requirements based on the diet and part of it is ingestible part of it is being accounted for a specific and not endogenous losses but if we base our system on the standardized ileal digestible system we have to account for the fact that the animal has to make basal and obvious amino acids there's some loss for maintenance and then there's an available availability available amino acid supply and even if that available amino acid supply would be 100 units the animal will never ever deposit 100 units of that amino acid there's always a maximum efficiency or a minimum catabolism and that's will differ between amino acids points that difference between amino acids because they are used for different functions they are 'men different turnover in the turnover of different proteins and in the next slide I have an example a numerical example of the requirement of a given animal wing of a pig 50 kilogram pig and you see some some some numerical values over there and for those interests they can reconstruct the graph that you see on the right hand side but you can see that basically fortunately the position is the largest part of the requirement but there's still a large gray part that's what we're looking for but you see it is a large gray part which is the cult of sometimes the inevitable catabolism of amino acids which can range anywhere between sometimes some people say for license for instance it can range between 20% and 40% so what makes up that inevitable catabolism and can we adjust that can we manipulate that because that is all the the lysine or the methionine that is not deposited but that contributes to the requirement of the animal and in the next slide we show you just as a slide of because these things change over time the animal changes its protein to position over time but we typically also change the diet supply over time but not in the same way as we do as the animal does and this slide you see the change in lice requirement over time when it is vented to face feeding program and the green area that you see in the curve is basically the excess supply of that amino acid maybe should we change the diet just twice but should we change it three times four times or multiple times so we have to take into account at different aspects of requirements and especially with respect to the to the beyond the building blocks the gray area especially the beyond the building blocks because these animals require these amino acids but then eventually lost they are not deposited yeah so it's important to adjust these requirements according to to time and so that's complexify a little bit more than a story because we talked about model we talked about objective we talked about individual variation but also in fact on adjusting on during the growth phase and that is a video a big issue now I would say what do we mean when we mean I mean a scene needs beyond building blocks obviously it's maybe your phrase for to challenge you a little bit but I know that you are interested by also the role of the Abbasid as building but it's also beyond that and maybe yep you can address a little bit more there's a different rule of the amino acids well the building blocks are of course that the muscle and the egg and the milk that that we're interested in but their amino acids and proteins have involved in many many processes and they are involved in in in functional protein so I like enzymes which are proteins they're involved in in hormones which are proteins which are being turned over the animal needs these but it has to be renewed every quite frequently there are also defensive proteins like glutathione and musings which are essential for the animal to defend itself to protect itself they have a tremendous turnover rate these proteins and we have to supply them but eventually they will be lost eventually they will be lost so we to quantify that that's basically a challenge to to meet to we can see protein deposition but can we see defense systems and we can quantify how much of an amino acid is required to defend more difficult to qualifying it's two to one we can qualify it but can we quantify it 25 and how will the animal respond if we do not provide sufficient minimize yeah and what priorities does the animal make yeah yeah does it put its defense system at stake or its growth it's interesting so maybe we can ask the representative of the of the field of the formulation what does he think about formulating with needs beyond block building blocks you know so Elena did you hear there's a question so how many think beyond building blocks the reduction of antibiotics is under pair here everywhere in the world maybe some counties are a bit ahead but everybody will follow I would say then then the amino acids which are more connected to Aminu immunity will be more important so then you will get an other set of requirements for such purposes as well enough so for a kind of let's say healthy feed for for your own piglets but it affects for all the older swine it can also be the case if you know that the circumstances are relatively bad due to their climate situation in in the houses or whatever because diffidence are very big across the world then then you might need to adjust these levels of these specific amino acids and that's also what we what we do dance lane so when we think about formulating beyond building blocks when big part is the intestine the functioning of the of the guts got tails and so on so maybe your mic you can further comment on that issue on amino acids and get functioning absolutely it's it's it's critical and it's funny that you mentioned the building blocks because the intestinal health is the first pass critical need of amino acids so they're gonna they're going to start there and if they need to be met at a higher rate you won't have any building blocks because everything stays in the intestine yeah so the first graphical projection I put up was one of the reviews that dr. ed Moran put together and I can't discuss this scenario without talking about dr. Moran and everything that he did over his career to validate amino acid needs for mucus and mucin layers but the the first reference to his work talks about both threonine and glycine as well as valine and isoleucine being so critical for the intestinal development and growth and again they're highly involved in the mucin and it's it's a critical needed think about the United States right now and as much as we are moving to antibiotic free diets in such a rapid rate we're changing the microflora and we're also changing amino acid needs to some extent so in the work that we've done some of the past work on threonine that all reference is two studies one of which was done published by myself on the second when dr. Corzo being the lead author and the first we used Cobb mature broilers 40 to 256 days a second we used 708 raw 708 rollers 40 to 256 days of age and we were really careful to set these studies up in a controlled environment within one house but the difference was litter so we we lined the pins with plastic and we went out of our way to make sure we had an experimental design where we could solely focus on a litter quality and basically we determine two different responses as we started this webinar with responses to amino acids we have two completely different requirements sets anywhere from five to ten percent difference on three any needs requiring a move higher level in a dirty environment that's the difference in being a little bit deficient breaking the bank so that there's huge variation in something like three and E which is critical so it points to the importance and know the environmental conditions that you're in before you can set that number at least cost formulation yeah thanks going further on Xia mucinous baked I'm sure when we we look at the metabolism and focus back towards threonine you can see that two of the deamination pathways are going to glycine in in Syrian as well so in these two different pathways we have one a three and he need four for mucin that's that's going to be higher but we also have a variation in crude protein because the glycine molecule is going to be represented as a sole entity in uric acid so we have to take into consideration protein diets as were lowering them as we move forward and as well the intestinal environment that we're in clearly dr. Koon and dr. Baker in the 1970s established neither glycine that was further validated by some work that Ben shooter did in 97 and most recently some of the work that bill Dozier student Rupert Cassell D is doing is looking at glycine the serine at a total level and they're showing some very nice responses that we we need to put at the front of the research that we're doing in the future so more and more we are enlarging the focus not only on the I would say fundamental assumption amino acid but to really all amino acids on the on the formulation actually looking at the effect on the I would say building blocks on the LC shoes and so on there's one part which is also interesting is looking at the effect of amino acids on the meat quality per se not only the deposition but also mid characteristics and I interviewed last week dr. Silber ahead of the avian Research Unit at in Reiner into and address a question on amino acids and meat quality let's listen to some Cecil [Music] I'm pleased to welcome that acid berry director of the Avion Research Unit in Iran in tour in France and to really address some issues regarding the formulation and amino acids beyond the role as building blocks and the first question I want to ask you a scene is really we look at the effect of transformation of muscle to meet more on the protein aspects but it it means it is important to consider the energy aspect and the energy transformation during the evolution of muscle to meet what can you tell a little bit more on that regarding amino acid and energy yes it's true that the the transformation of muscle into meat is greatly related to the amount of glycogen which means the carbohydrate store in missile at the moment of this this will determine the acidification rate and also the acidification extent of the meat and this parameter will be very determinant for most of the quality parameter of the meat and this is especially true for the white meat for example for the peak of the Putra meat because it will determine the color the water holding capacity the toughness of the meat and some soil quality overall you recently demonstrated that you can modify the composition of the muscle and just meet by the amino acid supplementation before slaughter and what is a link between the amino acids and the composition of the muscle and also on the glycogen reserves yes the first time we evidence roll a specific role of amino acid in determining meat quality was about ten years ago when we supplement for in in the finishing period broiler with lysine over the need for growth and we were able to demonstrate for the first time that this will affect not only the breast yield which was increased but also the ultimate ph of the meat and by the way the water holding capacity so it was the first time there was a demonstration in poultry that amino acid can affect the quality of the meat after that we try to know a little bit more about the mechanism involved and we were able to demonstrate that in fact the amino acid supply will determine the anabolism the protein anabolism but also the ability of chicken of broiler to store energy as glycogen in the muscle so there is a direct link between the amino acid supply and the glycogen to the energy reserve of the message yes because in fact the the quantity but also the quality of the amino acid will determine the amount of amino acid dedicated to protein synthesis and to the growth of muscle but it will determine also the amount of carbohydrate stored in the muscle and therefore this will affect directly the quality of the meat and when you talk about that very often you focus on breast meat this is typical glycolytic type of muscle and so on what about the other science think for it sounds a red part of the poultry France actually we only determine the effect of amino acid on on the white breast meat and I have no data on the regulation that occur in the red meat do you think that could be different it could be different because I have the feeling that the the breast meat and glycolytic breast muscle is very sensitive sensitive muscle and the glycogen has more effect on the white type of meat than on the red type of meat you mentioned for instance lysine as an amino acids what about the key amino acids that could influence the muscle transformation and the majority actually we also showed that which is important is the ratio for example between lysine and other essential essential amino acids but we also can demonstrate that some kind of amino acid like sulphuric no acid can affect or other meat quality traits like for example the oxidative sensitivity by increasing the or by decreasing the the oxidative stress within the muscle at the same level I do miss elaina you demonstrate also a reason is that a very short term supplementation you know a few days can influence the meat quality or the mid-transformation how can you elaborate a little bit more on that yes this result were very interesting because of course when we change the amino acid profile and also the supply the quantity we also change to grows and the breast and the development of muscle so the idea was to be able to change the meat quality without changing without affecting the growth enemas and I yield and we were able to do it by supplying a broiler only three days before slaughter and this result in chain to change and significant change in muscle pH will effect on the color of meat the toughness also the processing yield and this was very interesting because we were able to calculate some improvement in production cost on processed food for example and we were able to to show that by using nice regimen amino acid supplier we can improve greatly the the production cost for example when we produce ham so you think that this dietary strategy short term could be a very good possibility in fact to improve the quality of the end product yes it's a good strategy because the cost on the feed is almost nil but the benefit can be very very high and on the contrary if this final diet is not controlled the the lost the financial loss can be also very very high so it's very interesting for nutrition equipment from practical use to really well design this the end of the nutrition the the final part of the nutrition few days before slaughter obviously this applied to a poultry with very rapid growth right and do you think that could be applied or so in swine or eventually in in beef maybe yes maybe especially in swine where the the type of meat is very close to that of broiler and I think the swine muscles from swine can be also sensitive to this supply but it has to be tested okay thank you very much [Music] so quite an interesting view on the effect of amino acids on the on meat quality and I would say when we are dealing with amino acids we are giving also with balance of amino acids and between the interaction with amino acids so maybe your lab you can further comment about the interaction between the amino acids yeah absolutely I think that's a very important issue that has been didn't get it attention that it deserves so far we've been looking a lot to individual amino acids but a few years ago we looked at valine requirements in relation to the leucine supply and in the slide that you see now is you see two dose response studies the titration studies to divide valine supply in terms of impacts and you see daily gain and one was done with 113 losing two lysine ratio on an SI d base and one was with a much higher leucine supply of 165 and what you can see is that basically it doesn't change the requirement that much the requirement is around 74 75 based on this model but you do see is that the response below if you put supply line evading below the requirement the response where the Nexxus leucine as is quite high very high and the reason we because of these these interactions among the the branch in the amino acids is that they are catalyzed by enzyme complexes that are common for all three branched chain amino acids so valine isoleucine and leucine the first step is reversible but the second step is irreversible meaning that an access supply of one of these three amino acids can also provoke the catabolism of the other ones so that is something that we we know but we have not been able to or we have not we believe so far we have not quantified how the relationships should be how to quantify these dishes relationships among amino acids I think that's some an important area for the future so really balancing the amino acids and looking at the interaction maybe Mike you want to add some comments on the branch of chain amino acids sure especially with the branch chain we we have a commonality in the in the structure and we are trying to reduce protein in certain environments and we do so we tend to have a higher cereal based diets and lower oil seed based diets and especially with corn that we can have a higher levels of leucine I'll point to a couple of studies that were done about a decade ago Dave Barnum's work with Rob Couser and his thesis and Jared Kersey's work with pork Walter during his thesis they both looked at very practical approaches on branch and amino acid interactions and they showed with higher based cereals primarily a reducing the levels of valine and isoleucine leucine as Lucy was increasing in the diet when they kept the diets practical they did not see too much of a effect on performance so indicating the interaction is is going to occur but it's going to occur in a more academic or scientific scenario than that in practice but I put the the graph here with regard to metabolism just to point reference to the transaminase for all three branched chain amino acids because I want to go back to intestinal needs and mucin and the importance of this and antibiotic-free programs and the fact that these amino acids are going to be utilized first so with the branched chain amino acids their catabolism is going to glutamine and not only is it a functional component of mucin it's also key in the energy metabolism of interests so when we think about these branched chain amino acids and some of the interplay and interactions that we also need to think about the environment it's really challenging the nutritionist ought to reconsider the whole arrangement between acid and interactions but one topic we mentioned in the introduction was on the reduction of the dietary protein concentration it's quite an issue worldwide I would see and maybe Mike you're more idea but that I'd also just find out maybe you read a little bit but I think it's a big issue also in poultry and for the tutu very good way to put it I'm here with the swine nutritionist and I think they're a lot better than we are but we have a lot to learn in poultry we've been working hard over the years and trying to reduce protein and with each feed great amino acid that we're implementing we have a subsequent decrease in in protein and there in the work that I've showed here in this graph is is something that I started back in the mid 90s with dr. Brian Kerr and he and I would look at different protein dye week we created a meta-analysis of it of data around the world and we looked at protein and the reductions of nitrogen per se with the the effect of protein and we found that each incremental decrease from adding feed great amino acids safe from 21 percent to 20 or 22 19 we had between a seven and eight percent reduction of nitrogen so huge benefits for the environment and we just need to determine as because as we lower dietary protein you know we're focusing on the first few essential amino acids and the ones that we call less limiting are now coming more limiting and we just don't know enough about them to keep going down so it's something we're continuing to learn on and with that said I want to make mention to a publication that Leandro hackin are put together and we did this because there was a lot of controversy as to okay fourth limiting amino acid how do we how do we go to the next step because this is the point where el threonine had gone from an opportunity ingredient to a staple and least cost formulation for broiler rations across the world and then the question was well how do we how do we lower protein more well you go to the fourth limiting amino acid and you you optimize that and we did at least cost formulation runs in the diet with corn and soybean wheat and soybeans sorghum and soybean fixed amino acid ratios long story short primarily branch change so valine was fourth limiting in the vegetable based diets whereas isoleucine was most limiting in the diets with meat meals so it's a it's a point where those two amino acids specifically need to be focused on in order to be able to reduce protein going forward we have the ideal protein concept that we use and that we focus on and it was it was established again with the excellent swine nutritionist but we use it and we focus on it if we look at the interplay between valine and I so Lucy and I think there's some room to fine-tune those those responses and the levels we need so we can keep producing protein and we we probably need to get glycine in the equation as as much research is starting to focus on looking at glycine and serine is digestible lysine to total glycine serine dr. Dodgers doing most of that work it's really nice way to look at it so we've got to fine-tune these to be able to go to the next level he's interesting and maybe we can challenge the see a formulator to see how he looks at reducing dietary protein content I am sure that in Europe it's a big issue but we can ask Lena from Kigali in fact what does it mean for him the reduction of dietary protein content I think in the Netherlands it all started I remember that more than 25 years ago we already did some trials to find the lowest protein left over and finish the feed for swine and it's still relevant and you get worked if you're also in countries like Germany like them are like Belgium as well on protein s all phosphor and then of course it's a challenge which is the next limiting amino acids and also what I just mentioned how does that how does the dogs response curve look like that because it might be for certain amino acids that that optimal performance is the unique ratio of 60 percent for whatever amino acid with that if you applied 55 percent you only have a very small reduction in performance with a very strong reduction in cost because especially if you need to get you that bye-bye including less ingredients if you have all synthetic amino acids available okay you can you can judge because you know the cost of the synthetic amino acids it's relatively easy but if for the amino acids which a lot of vailable synthetic you need to reduce the matter Soria the 80 mil and so on the cost will be very high or or it will limit the reduction by a big part so that that's also for new amino acids like halogen for example that for higher volumes of production it will be very important that if suppliers can produce at what will cost be so that that the close cooperation I would always say to investigate to produce such amino acids between the feed industry Institute suppliers is extremely important to judge how our elephant is such an amino acid and how much will it be used and at what cost it's interesting and if I could add another question Lane about the taking into can see environmentally on ditions because you talked about you are formulating for a lot of countries around the world so I think it's important also to look at what would be the effect of the extreme conditions and so on on this formulation objectives and trials extremely high temperature that the whole density of the field is changing then the amino acid profile may be the level but the profile itself may be less because in such circumstances in in many cases whole birds are produced instead of instead of breast meat [Music] so less profile but more density of the field maybe adjusting the the level of lies in into this a fixed ratio of the other amino acids good indeed formulas are not copy/paste from the Netherlands - yeah if it is - down with 16 temperatures or such type of countries okay thank you when thinking about the benefits of dietary amino acids we always consider the technical aspects sometimes we forget the return on investment and I'm sure Lane has already addressed a little bit that questions Mike what about the objective if you talk about benefits you know economical benefits well I think that that's the formation of where the response comes into play because we've talked a number of different segments throughout this webinar about so-called requirements and in responses and amino acid needs but clearly you have one chance to put one number in and that's got to be an economic optimum so the response that I put up kind of shows that in a perfect world you can do a dose response and get a amino acid need in a given situation but based on the output based on the economics what is going to be the economic optimum and in this scenario there's presented adjustable valine isoleucine and arginine because I did this for for a reason because if we take an amino acid like lysine and we know where the response should be if we decrease that response in a minimum and formulation say 5% we were probably going to get a substantial decrease in fee conversion and meat yield from that response but if we decrease a less limiting amino acid 5% we'll see it immediately in terms of diet cost but will we see it in terms of performance so with the economic optimum in play there's a lot we need to do to balance the diet for performance based on the conditions of the integrator I'm sure that Lane will also complement on what you say because I think they are facing the issue about what is a return on investment putting more of an amino acid regarding the objective I would like also to add a question to Tulane not only is a benefit cost ratio but also do we need more information to better or formulate on amino acids of the dose response more information will be welcome and I can imagine that producers of amino acids like to show that where you receive the maximum performance and maybe not optimal or optimal economical performance because then you say all answer synthetic amino acid but I think it is it is important to to to get the highest profit for our for for indicators for farmers for feed mills to know that information because it's almost always Pluto being at a certain moment that are still some response but but what is communicated about it and if that information is only coming from from universities and so on there's much more information available in the market closer call a closer cooperation between the two would be more than welcome because at the end optimization is always we are the input of the ingredients of the nutrients and the crisis in the part of the prices in many research is not or hardly taken into account but I think in most cases not taking the two economies and it drives the formula in the end no clicking interesting maybe lamp you told me that yeah you wanted to give some comments on that yeah I agree with helene of course in research we're looking at biology we're looking at biological responses and they will change of course especially in poultry they have changed tremendously what changes very rapidly is prices and of course we can as a scientist if it takes if you settle them an experimental program and it takes a year or two to do it and another you can establish Rice's are completely out of the range so I think it's important to combine two we can't provide a biological response but the economic context is changing everyday so it's important to really optimize based on the biological response of the animal absolutely the point good points so I'm sure that you that stimulate your questions on the on the platform maybe we we can now stop on the presentation and the time is really flagging so sorry for the participants so we will start to ask few questions just now and for the question we will not ask in fact feel free in fact to send your question on the web platform and we will answer to the question with our experts later on so one of the first question is what difference between synthetic amino acids and amino acid present in the ingredients and that's I would say typically for the formulator but I would prefer maybe to ask yep and and my to answer to that question well that's in peak nutrition that's a question that was asked many many years ago when batter hampered did the study where he showed that well free amino acids in attica amino acids are readily absorbable and so they are immediately available to the animal where is perhaps the proteins was added her idea the energy sources or the other protein sources are not available many studies have been done ever since and we have never really seen an effect for instance of feeding frequency on amino acid use so in terms of metabolic what the animal sees once it is absorbed is amino acids peptides but that's it so a potential difference would be in the gut and does the God help us have receptors for amino acids or proteins and perhaps there is a response in that but in practical the feeding I have not seen any difference in in terms of amino acid use free amino acid use compared to even when you compare I would see us wine with a meal feeding and I would say Broyles with more nibbler and eating the whole day and so on yeah and I won't go into detail with the word my batter him because he explained that very very well but we have a meal fat bird and we've wondered the same thing in our conceptual idea of amino acid absorption but what I would like to point to is that the difference is we're looking at an individual amino acid versus a pool of amino acids so as we feed for example the high amino acid density diets for birds and for an economic optimum in a certain scenario we were moving the whole plane of nutrition forward and when we do that with feed right amino acids we're doing that with certain amino acids and we're creating limitations and others so that's another concept and think we need to be very very keen to remember so sure we can I would say debate a little bit more on that so maybe we can take another question even if the time is flagging I think we have some time to answer to some questions so yeah an interesting question regarding the object is we always talk about breast meat and do we consider that immunity needs for the development of breast is the same for scientist you want to do the boy so we we look at the deboning typically of all the parts and the trials we do and this some of this was presented earlier this year at the australian poultry science symposium in sydney and with the low protein diets if we miss it and typically not typically but many of the times we do miss it in formulation to get the response to where it needs to be we have a reduction in breast meat yield so by default based on a yield bass parts percentage with lower protein diets or with amino acid balance it's not geared toward optimizing white meat yield because that's what the bird wants to do you can maintain a feed conversion see conversion and increase Dartmouth yields at the same time that's pretty clear but you know you would recommend slightly different I would say amino acid profile absolutely in asia-pacific when they are concerned sure most of rest of the whole cast and CEO you need two feet four feet conversion there because pushing the bird more for white meat yield they probably don't want to push the bird more but they're probably pushing V conversion but you don't need to push the bird in those environments to get the carcass percentage of dark meat yield because that's gonna be where the lower percentage of breast comes into play so that can be really interesting to reconsider that may be your last question based on the yield interview as from it polity could we think about short term amino acid supplementation for specific teas you talk about God tells you talk about different aspects beyond I would say meat quality as we consider a fine sound an extra simplement ation of immunity to to solver sanitize you to solve some get functioning and so on not that I know of the the first point that comes to my mind when you mention me quality is looking at the withdrawal time in commercial boilers potentially putting something in the water we've got to remember the rapid turnover of amino acids you know a pool of amino acids 48 72 hours but we have experimented for example with tryptophan back in the 90s with dr. Moran looking at feeding or providing tryptophan in the water before slaughter so to relax the birds in the particular environment so I think we could also consider looking at amino acid supply prior to these situations for for me quality as well and I don't want to get into something like you know myopathies because I I think that identified long before the end of the trial but for sure we could that would just be one example and and next year because you will be talking at advanced your next years on hotend conditions or environments in question would be quite another challenge on the amino acid requirements I think time is really flagging so I'm sorry for for the people who ask questions so don't forget that you can still drop your question on the web platform and once we're to the question with our specialist as a joke I would say I would like to ask a question to our two invitees we for years and years we think about the ideal protein based on the lysine you know for beta because it started on swine and so on and it's of essential amino acid for for swine button in broilers or port where we see the most essential one is miss I mean why not you have ideal protein based on lies in for swine and sign in for broilers no well I mean for lie see Francis we don't think just in terms of life she returned her in terms of lysine it relative to net energy or metabolizable energy yeah and we have to have a reference because lysine to net energy ratios change over the lifespan of an animal and people have some idea about how it changes threonine to net energy will change the same way tryptophan to net energy will also change so so rather so so what other than having an image how does amino acids relative to energy change it's it's good to have a reference and a lysine is a relatively stable reference and then think of well hardest training to Lyceum what what should the ratio be even though people sometimes think of three ninja lysine may change and because of the contribution of maintenance may change so is it important to change the reference and should we have a reference I think yes because it makes life for the nutritionist much simpler the question is really in fact to see if there is no bias when we consider when a poultry for instance compared to would it make a difference if you would use my Athenian as a reference I'm not sure Mike well yeah yeah we have a feather situation not sure we're gonna add know how to get around clearly but with poultry the same concept is true with the swine and that is that that lysine is highly limiting and the whole body protein accretion is at a high rate versus maintenance is almost zero so we have that same situation even though lysines not first limiting in both but we need a reference and these amino acids are interplaying threonine and methionine or interplaying when we look at the intestinal interaction types type environments so we need a reference is it the best one yeah and as we as we said we need a reference we need a common base yeah so which may be the best situation but clearly the way we have more to learn so yeah that question may be answered thank you very much I would like to warmly sunk out to the speaker so that 11 million from rain and the professor my kid from Arkansas and also lane from Cargill in Rotterdam and I would say you will have the answer on all your questions on the web platform you will be able to listen to the program again on the podcast and so on you can it will be divided in section because already this time it's a bit longer compared to the previous one but you will have the possibility to look as a whole live webinar as well as different parts of the of the webinar we hope you enjoy the webinar which you will continue to be addicted to the fictional dot online platform we give you appointment for the next free channel live webinar in February mid-february and it will be devoted to equality and the next one in April will go back to swine I will give more information later on so I would say bye bye everyone and looking forward to seeing you next February and because it's a final closing of the last webinar of 2017 I think I would like to only add the whole team on free Channel to wish you Merry Christmas and Happy New Year [Music]