[Music] okay welcome back we have approximately an hour to go through questions and answers we have the three speakers in front for the panel and if I can draw your attention to the screen we have already been presented three slides of questions so the first question is is there an optimum age to measure nutritional value in broilers so I would have direct that to the three of you it's coming to Mateos he just doesn't realize it the first one their optimal age to measure know whatever you want to look at there's big difference between every single day actually but I mean some in general might say that from from what I know most of nutritionists have one value for always including breeders and we know that's a big mistake some of them separate first week for 10 days from the rest and I always think when I see people doing that same I mean which is the biggest mistake separating them without having the right values to formulate or actually providing these different numbers to them to the feed formulation program if you have a decent data bank I mean it'd be nice at least to separating to have a Leica chick maybe two ten days that's not easy because we need a lot of chicks and if you want to do i Leo's with ten days chicks you need like thousand chicks so to get the contents I mean it all depends on what really is needed I think in life nothing is perfect you have to choose and my feelings right now what most of the papers looking at the energy or looking at the university activity youth birds around 21 days and I think this is the correct thing so do you know 21 days if you only produce birds from 1 to 7 days then you have to take care of modify whichever you feel but I think you do something the key is to know what you are doing and right now most of the data would be around 21 days so you had to use that no but I I work only with 1 to 7 days then you have to modify and the modification which is easy I mean it's not perfect but it's easy things that are easy to digest they have better value for their small chicks things that are difficult for example for cone will be close at value not for peace because peace are more difficult to or the same for for fats fat a very unsaturated fats will be closed saturated fat will be far but at the end 21 days that's my guess remember is not perfect but you have to know what you're doing yes I think that that's a very good point Jean Dubreuil from in Iran in France retired for me I think yes even in import reproduction you should move to a different energy value according to the state or production I think you obviously there are big differences and I think console shows were that there is some confusion about the concepts sometimes we fall for Reuters or for party production we talk about a me but we also produced data or some data are available for a me for 0 nitrogen balance so clearly there is a lot of confusion about what is already a me and a part of that yes we should move to different values for the different stages of production especially for laying hands versus rollers I think that's at least one stage that should be considered for future evaluation of energy value and I won't talk about that energy afterwards which was also very product thank you for your donation yes Thank You Marcos who wrote Scott from Hunan University probably not a question but just an additional comment I totally agree on what you said Gonzalo because I mean it's a fair valuation always is a compromise between precision and what can be done with all the variety that we have to face with but what I would like to add is that we do have in regard to animal assays we do have some standard procedures now defined we have it for quite a long time for metabolizable energy in chicken and we now also have it for digestible phosphorus embroiders and since a few months we also have it for adjustable amino acids in broiler so what we should agree on that is that we should use this standard essays in future so that values will become better comparable in future in fact one of the slide that I put that he was very clear that I put the standardized and sundries in standardized and at the end that's what I said it best things 21 days because most of the data I remember I'm for energy for our done with chickens at that age so I totally agree on that you have to standardize and then you have something different then you have to think how to modify this value that you get once you standardize the second one which is pretty much similar to the first one should we consider different values in a starting phase and finish phase particularly for heavy rollers I think that's the same question right yeah pretty much the same same I I have no further comments on that I don't know if you guys have it I put us in a sample in the Spanish table the fitnah table we have four as mode for cheeks and four broilers or more adult burglars I can tell you 100 percent of the people use the value the value for 421 de broglie's so it means that at the end you don't have what is this information for energy value or amino acid for 42 days or chicks they are not information so you have to be wasting the information is available and then modify depending on when you're feeling let me just make a comment on that as well just follow-up I think it's standard causation is extremely important for this starting phase and finish the phase and we have phat values different for ballers so we have AME values for fat sources they are different for starters and finishes for some in the Sun tables and they actually differ quite widely between young and all the birds thank you Jeff clap worthy from Inghams Australia I'm a commercial nutritionist and I'd like to think also somewhere a scientist how we approach this in a practical sense I can with the speakers from this morning we have to have standardized values we have to be very choosy on their values most importantly we need to understand the process in which those ingredients have been produced which was mentioned this morning but what do we do practically and what we do is we'll use some standardized values they'll probably be typically those 21-day values and then we'll use strategy on your own greening inclusion so rather than use different values for different age birds we will make a judgement and be selective on where we place those ingredients so the ones that we understand have got poor digestibility values in young birds we will limit the inclusion in the diet or exclude them and use them strategically in other parts of the diet thanks more questions also sorry I had a quick comment on a teach there are clear differences in phosphorus and calcium digestibility between the neonatal bird and neonatal being up to 7 days and the differences are pretty extensive in terms of for the same ingredient they are very very extensive we're talking about actual 25 to 30 percent difference in digestibility coefficients so a the neonatal bird is extremely different from from the rest of the growing face of Reuters and it's something we need to start paying attention to but that's the same and everything right with it fat that's at least ten percent difference but I guess that probably methodology or incapacity of recovering everything from my young chick when it's compared to rooster for example it's part of their the dictor out that I mean phosphorus may be different but I mean I've done that with fat alone not not recently but in the past it's always ten fifteen percent difference if you go from 10 days to 40 days for an example but that's for everything if you look at soybean meal for an example same so the question is it Sam since then there's a standard of difference between young and older animals so does it make any sense having two different numbers if you have to have it I mean you have to have two for everything otherwise it just mixing mistakes right I'm not saying I'm not saying you're wrong well no so you're actually saying that when we're growing the maximum of the skeletal system we should ignore the fact that you have calcium phosphorus differences and for me at least for a in terms of amino acids potentially because you have a complete change in amino acid needs between muscle growth and what's happening early on but for the skeletal system I think you have to pay attention when your digest abilities are so completely different I would like to do a very practical kamikaze yes indeed form a theoretical point of view it's interesting to move to a different protein and achieve values first first values according to body weight or age in royal as for instance but you should be very practical as well I think apparently there are some differences in the early in the start of faith but that amount the amount of feet that is consumed during that part represents about 15 or less than 20% of the total feed that is consumed by grow reproduction so from my point of view that's the waste of time and waste of money to care too much about giving specific nutritional values for that early stage of production that's but you have other stages of production which are very important and totally different these animals are close to others they are fed low feeding levels so they're it's worth spending some time and money to evaluate the feed correctly thought that state of production or you have other types of production is where you have turkeys and so today you are using the broad as values for Turkey so I think you should be very careful about doing that so that's a very pretty group ok so it's a very very good point cross comparisons I think we are we are different from young to old but it's obviously you cannot formulate a diet every single day currently our values starter base values vary tremendously between laboratories with an ingredient etc I think our safety margin is so large that you can drive a truck through so there are a lot of issues so we the backdrop of this such a big in a variation and practicality issues you know I think we need to have standardized values and start somewhere I think made it's the point I would summarize here so I would like to we have a lot of questions to go through I would like to move to in question here is number three should we consider global effect of all enzymes as a global solution or should we consider an additive effect between all enzymes so there is our third question and yeah so that questions I will say that whole thing is important that you elites consider the enzyme solutions depending on the raw material matrix what's the type of fiber components or other components you want to to to use the enzyme for because these rather meaningless for instance to use the cylon ease for soybean meal and it's also rather meaningless to use the pectin ease for cereal products so be aware about the matrix you are working with if you are looking on the global effects of all enzymes I I think it's it's depend very much on the efficacy of the individual enzymes on a given matrix and that is simply something you need to generate based on theoretical information but also practical experiences good point I'd say that you can do both I think it depends on how well-built is your databases and how reliable is the knowledge that you have on the effect of the enzyme of the complex enzyme that are using be also nice to know what's the final stage of degradation of each one of those enzyme that you want to know but I don't think anybody knows that I mean that deeply but if the question is also related to the fact that if you add any like three four enzymes with a sole purpose of degrading one substrate plus another present nada plus another theoretically should have an additive effect but it doesn't hurt like that and fortunately it doesn't work like that so at the end all it's best to mix it up everything and getting to know what's the response in your act or situation I think this is related total number three and four so it goes in the same direction that I mean for example the main point that you had to consider all the enzymes did they work for example energy they work in the energy that is not digested they do not work in the energy that is digested what is digested don't need anything is digested finish so you have for example if roller diet has brought energy four thousand so eighty percent is digestible so the enzymes of all the product the additives the antibiotics everything will work in the twenty percent that is not digested so it's not always the three the the metal solar energy is the non DST energy which is eight hundred kilo calories so you have an enzymes has to work on eight hundred kilo calories you have to products and you have less space to work so at the end you cannot use you use five different in science or different additives in general you will go more than eight hundred kilo calorie so you cannot so the reason why the effects are not additi they are every time layers because you have less place to work professor Mateos you also early in your presentation discuss the amino acids and the additive effect of enzymes is more critical because we're working so closely to a requirement and there's a very little room so if you don't relax the ingredient matrix and decrease the requirements of respected amino acids you won't be expected to get a response that's very clear and I tried to put that that's what I did this trailer that I exposed was not for that but I took advantage my goodness many times you do not see any effect on on the on the protein on the protein has to be I mean because at the end if you reduce viscosity let's say you improve everything so in this style was very clear you are very very short in amino acids then all day this product you notice when they work and they don't but you have ten percent margin even if your product improve the dsdt of amino acids by eight percent you don't notice anything because I still you have to press a mystery so I got a question just about I could add a little bit because if if you're looking into for instance some of the variability you can have in cereal grains and with many of the enzymes a way by which you can narrow in the the variability in the animal performance that can be by using the enzymes which will typically lift up the bat quality cereals to to more or less like the average levels and that is particular coming back to some of the the first questions we had up there at least with Peaks so that for the very young animals that approach seems to work with us if you're coming to older animals the differences and also the possibilities by using the enzyme will be somewhat less any any imbalance amino acids or whatever effect neurology was speaking no introduced the intake mic one other questions or one other thing here okay it's Rob from additio one thing that we focus on is the indigestible fraction but we tend to not talk about what the secondary effects are from anti-nutritional effects directly on the gut so for stimulating that gut to over produce say immune cells or moose or whatever increase the turnover if we're adding enzymes we're decreasing that effect then that is a direct effect on what you're seeing in terms of growth and production those nutrients are going towards another purpose growth and production rather than say an immune response which drags down performance so just want to kind of put that in there as well very good point professor Mateos this one is this was coming straight to you it's number five and it's talking about variation and the question simple what's the answer what do we use for our values and formulation sorry to ask it like that but I think that's what they're getting at face I think I like table values and I think if I ask I will not so don't worry 80% of the people here at least will use table values the problem is and use the wrong ones and usually and usually the wrong ones are the one that are very different and I always say that you are in a highway and all the cars goes against you you can do two things call the police that everybody's crazy in this city or just put aside and think so for example when I see this table that I did and I enjoy that because I immediately know which is wrong just look at the way it's not a question of nutrition it's a question of philosophy you see everybody's thinking somebody's fitting the fitting probably 99% of the time is wrong so take it out in second make sure that you follow always the same table as I mentioned you cannot say okay good because I'm interested soil I will evaluate it as CBB but for the tallow I will use the table from the PDP dia because then you are creating problems but this very easy I can tell you I mean you cannot be perfect what you need in formulation in practical formulation is to be 80% okay and to be 80% okay just take out these strange values is not that the is not that difficult really it's a the question referring to ingredients or requirements ingredients the ingredients in the nutrient values to work how to where do you get them and how to use them well that's it Sam there's so many methodologies that are so available today that can actually support any table like nears that's been around for thirty years I think that for most of the variations having any table as main reference you can have a quick lab or nursing for hand or something like that data can be useful in the future for introduced tabulation through the through the software formulation that's already around yeah when you scan a sample in Paraguay and send it to France to be to be treated in you know the skin is going back with the proximal analysis remain OS analysis you already do in there so it's a Jean Dubreuil from his well again yes I would say that using only fitting table would be a pity I think you have so much information that can be improved by measuring something on the feed stuff you are dealing with that's a big step forward nothing to improve the accuracy of your nutritional value adding you have plenty of methods chemical methods were used in the past but that's that's very old-fashioned of us in that takes time and that cost money I think you have a lot of other things and news is a good option I think if you can combine the information that is given in one feeding table yeah you're right on zero combine that with some Corrections according to very rapid and immediate indicators such as news that's perfect that should be the objective thank you yeah that's you know I'll just make a quick comment here I think it's many of you sitting here many of the feed companies and animal production companies you all have test farm so I think what you're saying is absolutely right and no I don't know thing in Australia and probably Jeff clarity sitting here and he'll tell me and they run a lot of samples through their own farms you correct the values matrix values constantly so they are nirs and you also have wet laboratory methods etcetera so I think it's very very obvious and you obviously you based on a table value first but then you will be looking at the raw materials and doing tests in urine test farms all the time - correct and it just you values that what they said and not a I know tables are there to stay in I like them but relative equation has to be something very easy to implement and that will be NIR technology now one thing every time that I use for example big feed mills with many recipes they had to use many ingredients different 10 farms 10 different feed mills they have to that that you said thing I agree on that but I always when I get the value by creative equation I always check how far from the table values is and they said you stiff occasion for that I mean you have a cone with more starts and you get a value that is Heigl makes sense but you get lowered you know that something is wrong in the equation that you are using but ideally totally gonna that's a good point gotta be careful with Korn for an example yes as well as other ingredients but at least with Korn as you get like increase in corn density you have increase in saying it's a much worse protein that's the proteins didn't gluten that's in the German I'm sorry so if I if you have a mic on 750 against 700 you're gonna have it important difference in terms of essential amino acids so if you're basing your regression just in the protein content you make a mistake again from I just like to make an observation of everyone just to consider I haven't got a solution but in observation at the end of the day of these values and I don't really see a big challenge I think we've got sufficient consensus here today as to how we could come up with those values and how we can refine them but at the end of the day we're treatment values that we use to determine requirements we've put values that we use similarly to to to formulate diets but why are we formulating diets aside from research we're formulating diets to make cost-efficient chicken meat or breeder eggs or table eggs so at the end of the day the values we use are going to change our procurement decisions and I find that's an area that's often neglected these sorts of seminars you've got to go to the one step further so the values that we you are going to determine the economics of what we purchased strategically so you've got it can they come up with some values that you can utilize and having multiple values for multiple ages of a broiler is going to lead to a very complex procurement decision just a thought now we have in front two questions one six and seven are pretty much similar the first would be the best advice if a safety margin is applied in the design matrix when barriers enzymes are used together for energy uplift and this is one question is maybe could you have some comments I'm afraid that's a difficult question really to answer because I mean what what what that you you are in in in the situation where you would like to lift up the the energy and and how much extra you should apply out of the enzymes or improve the nutritional value obviously I have simply no practical experience in in that area it's natural so that if Winston you're working with feeds which you already know that can be of not optimal quality you cannot obtain an improvement in one other other way by adding some of the enzymes but I must say to give an exact value for die I I would like I wouldn't dare to do that at least stated on if you have to you really feel that you need a safety margin you should change your provider or anything honestly because if you can really rely on the data that the company that's providing you the enzyme they should change the company thing and the companies have to be very responsible on that matter because there's a lot of a lot of pushing to increase energy and energy for Bridals becoming less and less responsive in terms of limiting the consumption so depending on your the control of your production if you have a mistake of 30 K cows you mean NEVER no to that so I have not using safety margin in conclusion the matrix for this enzyme should be very wide I mean you're having a relationship with somebody it's very important to you you have to rely on the data otherwise I mean I don't see how come I mean if you buy what price or security right sometimes people actually try to trick it themselves you know just say okay I'm gonna add that Plus that Plus that I mean you cannot have everything my name is Moshe dick Asif and I'm from Pakistan we are engaged in this sporty feed business from the last 30 years and I am coming to the last point and comparing corn and use it raw stable these methodologies genetics and the harvest season being the same constant we have two one is winter crop other is summer crop difference of moisture is ranging from then we have the this summer crop we have this about eight to nine percent moisture into the core whereas the other crop minimum is about 13 to 18 percent normally we use values at 12% level but that that corn which contains about 8.5 percent moisture the nutritional of course the density of nutritional definition density of corn increases not three when we consider the percentage of moisture it is difference is about three point five percent when we translate it into percentage it goes up to 30 percent and but generally we don't we calculate on the basis of 12% but the corn which we use which is three point five percent which is eight point five percent moisture gives very good excellent results I'll compare to 12 plus moisture so what value we should use here taking into consideration the difference of moisture content of the call one point what that I'll make is in the US I think every batch every rail car every tractor-trailer of corn has analyzed immediately for moisture at the mill and then that that is adjusted in the formula for space mark Lavanya I'm going to call on you would you concur with that yeah yeah he basically said he would use you and make him his two ingredients so the your difference is so extreme you know they would put a be put in different bins in the US is just like corn or soybean meal that's how they would adjust for that hello and thank you for the nice presentations yes from Jordan my question is regarding the combination between the enzymes specially xylene ease and phytase and the correlation with the metabolizable energy for for poultry because normally the suppliers are just to decrease a little bit the energy that comes from the enzymes when we are using more than one enzyme but what happens sometimes that when the customers they are using already high-density diets or even medium density diets if we are decrease the energy coming from the enzyme we we noticed that there are a decrease in the feed intake and that means that the energy comes from enzymes that really works and we are here in the problem of underestimation for the enzyme for the energy coming from the enzymes thank you as a general rule and then it should you use it the way you want when you have an enzymes as a self you said the house or the company selling the inside will tell you how to use it they know how to do it you can criticize say it's more or less but it's okay this is an enzyme but the you use for enzymes or additives together they will never be additive make sure this is correct you use one is okay but for together you will not get it professor no Blaine has a question sorry I keep calling your professor retired no play has a perfect okay yes one comment about enzyme assay effects I think when the supply of enzymes tell you that yeah you should increase your the enzymes would provide you 50 kilowatts I don't give a figure like that I think these people you know they are careful they provide you a value which might be little bit lower than what is observed in vivo and also they are careful because you everybody knows that the effect of enzymes are not the same according to the ingredients according to a lot of factors you end up so clearly the response to enzyme is not uniform it varies very much to a lot of factors in addition to that I think some people in the room know I am a very good defender of the net energy things when you are walking with Amy for evaluating the energy value or feed you are not getting the best criteria for evaluating the true energy for your defeat I wouldn't say that net energy is the is the true value but it's pouring closer so that means that when you are dealing with Amy you are probably missing something and the response to enzymes might be a little bit better I don't know exactly but that should be quantified on a net energy basis that it is observed on an Emmy basis so that gives you some explanation about why the answer to enzyme EC is not to what you expected sometimes it's better which is very likely but sometimes it could be worse as well so as you can see we've moved to another screen we have some questions 9 through 12 we have to go to 215 questions before lunch just kidding just making sure you're awake we do have one more screen though and we're gonna have a few more questions and then we're gonna Pierre Andre let me know that all of the questions will be answered and published on the feed a feed channel the channel I guess feed channel calm but specifically since I've got the microphone could we direct the speakers to question number 12 fiber because it's a question that I have that I don't have an answer to an expression of fiber and feed based on a nutrient matrix so what can we do how can we look at it and how can we address it well I think that's one I can at least start in in in in in answered well the thing is that the days do universal definition about dietary fibers in the feet that's that's one of the problem because when you're looking into the literature you will see all kind of values for for the fibers I should say though that over the last couple of years I was starting to use the human definition of dietary fibers which although it's not perfect it'll live at least try to relate the Charter carbohydrates in lignin to the components that's not digested in the by the industrial enzymes that can also be you can put value of that you can put value on that on on feedstuffs basis although table values although it's not all type of feed stuff where we have all the values available I should though say the most difficult part of of that way of expressing it that is with regard to resistance toss because resistance thoughts that depend very very much on the current situation which is provided for the animals we know when we are looking across many of the feed stuffs that form any reasonably finely ground materials and also when you are feeding pelleted diets digestibility of starch will typically be in the author of nine to seven between 96 and 97 percent but that values if you are feeding more coarsely ground materials can go down to around 90 and it's also so that if you're feeding for instance starts from from legumes as peas and fava beans it can be as low as 85% but basically that's the most difficult part of really to evaluate and it it depends very very much on the on the matrix you are using so I'll say that's that's the that's the most difficult part of it when it comes to a more practical approach because when you're looking on the relationship between the fibers in the diet and also basically digestibility and energy values whether you call it metabolite level or net entity you can say the in soluble fiber components they are the ones that reel that has the strongest relationship and even when you correlate digestible energy you can get reasonable values out of crude fiber values although you'll say that they only represent a very very small fraction of the fibers in the diet but but correlating the digestibility to talk to fibers can you can even use the the crew fiber values but this approach has its limitation because from the crude fiber value you do not know how mas fiber you're actually having the right yes I would like to add something to it I think we've been using crude fiber since 1884 and it doesn't mean anything it is not a chemical entity it depends on the extraction process using dilute alkali and acids so it depends on the ingredients the value varies so it's moving target doesn't mean anything if you look at soybean meal you're looking at crude fiber and it's very very low but the true fiber content of soybean you have compared the crude fiber content looking at about 20-30 percent difference between a fiber content so there lies your issues this five were definite in using crude fiber you will not be adding your nutrients to hunt ingredient matrix two hundred percent because for some ingredients some of the five components are missing then you see okay then we'll use another type of fiber what about neutral detergent fiber acid detergent fiber again neutral detergent fiber will miss a lot of the hectic polysaccharides during the detergent extraction process therefore for vegetable proteins again you're missing out a very large proportion of your real fiber in a diet again you cannot actually add 200% so I think it's talked about Newton's comment about using a human nutrition definition in dietary fiber today this non-stick polysaccharide NSP plus lignin that comes very close to representing the true fiber content died and fiber it's certainly a huge issue because in the feed formulation you know how can you have least-cost feed formulation by missing 20 30 percent of your soybean meal or canola meal some other vegetable protein meals because we don't know a lot of us add up the same entity several tons sometimes you you know adding up hemi cellulose or a bonus orleans beta glucans solid rock ends well hemi cellulose actually contains reversed all those entities and they are not separate entities and there are a lot of issues and five right and we need to really focus on it this one is matrix value second one is a large part of your undigested components on which we are using enzymes to get derive benefits from a part of the fiber we have a question on the front row thank you miss Davis from the University of Extremadura here in Spain I would like to make a question regarding the microbiota it was mentioned in several of the after presentations and like say several days ago I attended a conference about human nutrition and there was a physician a medical doctor who said that in a way something like tell me the microbiota that you have and I will tell you the healthy status that you have I understood from your presentations that this is not very well developed topic in animal nutrition I don't know you said that you should learn from medicine to which extent because we are encouraged as human beings to have these probiotics and so on to which extent it may be necessarily required for animal nutrition to provide animals with these probiotics to guarantee a good gut health and overall health status thank you well what is known is that you can damage the cell lining throughout many different ways you know an easy way of doing that is by allowing overgrowth of bacteria especially if it's bacteria that actually with gram-negative or it can actually degrades museum apparently that triggers [Music] synthesis and increase of proteins that regulate the structure of the proteins that are involved some of the proteins that are involved in the maintaining the edges adjacent cell membranes of the interior sites that actually allows or it increases the space between them or hidden or and by doing that it allows influx and efflux of what both sides and when it happens you have either transient diarrhea or more absorption depending on the degree of this if looks between the parcel our pathway but he also allows an influx of bacteria today what's inside of the body in that and that is basically what ends up is causing inflammation as a response first localize it in the upside of the membrane downside because we're looking at the lumen the other way and then and that's sexually causing all the issues that you have with inflammation and this is there's some papers tell nude visit here he he has some data on what he calls post prandial inflammation right so post premio information is what happens with any animal after eating there is a and there's estimations on that that range from three to twenty percent he will be around tomorrow I think or this afternoon so he can answer that but at the end that number ends up where because if you're actually feeling something and measuring at the end of what's being excreted and in between you have waste or expenditure of energy to cope with that inflammation we're not actually measuring that right so one thing is killing the bacteria and this is being done for a long time with strong success okay so since we cannot do that anymore the only way to do that is modulating what you're feeding to the animals when you say modulating what we're feeding the animals that means doing whatever you can to reduce to increase digestibility because every time you have digestibility that's not complete your theoretically allowing overgrowth of bacteria another way of doing that is by going back to competitive exclusion that's an old theory there's a new this new scientist saying that's not the right way of saying that but I mean at the end and by feeding bacteria that we've actually replaced the sides and not allowing the bad bacteria bacteria to to reproduce an overgrowth I think that limitation limitations in both things but one thing is for sure there is a clear there are clear indications that LPS can enter the circulatory system and that in the toxin can cause even a very low concentrations can cause inflammation and that actually is it's part of that has been synthesized and I think that's a very new area for us I think that because the industry has a high interest in developing probiotics we're going to learn a lot in the next three years on there I may make a comment on I fully agree with with with the comments here from before but there is also and at least when you're looking into toward the situation in epic an area which we need to keep in mind when you're looking on human subjects typically we consume in the order of 20 grams of dietary fiber D and if you're looking into similar figures for for for pig that will be before 4 in 500 gram a day so there is enormous difference in the amount of at least potential of fermented materials which you pass from the small to the last intestine I'm not completely sure about the figures in in broilers but when I'm looking into data from from the literature where they also have tried by dieter means to change the microbial composition it's typically so that really to be able to achieve that at least in a pig you need to work with with carbohydrate sources where you have one type of polysaccharides that's really predominant that can for instance be with inland it can will be with secure or chicory roots which also have a fruit and content and so on but but to do that in many cases with with ordinary feeding that's a bit more difficult so typical what we when we when we increase in the amount of fibers in the diet we're providing a broad variety of carbohydrates for to be further fermentation in the last intestine and naturally to directly steer the microorganism in a particular direction that has in that respect some limits in my view another comment that I think that's appropriate now for example when you look at the obesity in the humans you're gonna see that obesity obese people or high-fat eating people they have high higher concentration of pro-inflammatory cytokines such as I so what's our chicken you know what's our Pig so they're they grow so fast and they deposits so much fat so quickly that they may be actually respond in the same way we've got the last screen up let's let's do question 17 the impact of enzymes and their potential on prebiotic for raw materials if you use an appropriate end farm there's no doubt that you will create some carbohydrates with prebiotic properties too but I'm also pretty much sure that to be able to use that concepts that will require the least some further works compared to where we are today but but when you try to analyze for instance digester at the end of the small intestine after giving for instance I lynnae's to tour a zero-based diet you will typically see that you also have created some arabinose Island or locust Ackroyd's which for sure will have an impact on on the microbial composition and that can be a way by which you in reasonable cheap way can influence the floral composition but again we shouldn't forget that the amount we are able to reproduce in that way it's relative to a relatively high content of other fermentable materials okay so in this morning session we we started with a variation of textbook values based on nutrient content of ingredients and then looked at further as saying the jest ability analysis for in vitro and in vivo techniques and how those vary and then we went to looking at the nutrients in the least-cost formulation and especially the nutrients that we don't see and how I should address those going forward so we've had a number of questions and pierre andre indicated that these would be available on the feed channel calm and i'd like to turn the floor back over to pierre Andre I just want to remind you that you've seen we had some more than 20 questions through the application so for those who have not yet downloaded the application it's very simple you don't load the applications through App Store or Google Play from advance eeeh and that's how alone or if you have an issue advancer dot EAP or you'll be able to post your question at any time even after and the question will be answered by the scientific panel later on through the free channel so for those people who ask also for the presentation for the documents you everything is video recorded so you will have access to the whole to hold the presentations and you can relocate it rebut some time several time because some are quite complex and it's got good to look several time and you just don't also on fictional dot on line and then you will get the response to the questions and you will get all these video podcasts okay so I would like to do some the speakers first and so we we have found something which is traditional from from Spain we have already tested yesterday for those who are yesterday also dinner and it's really an example of the taste of what you got in in Spain so and the tool so maybe the tool is a bit tricky to get back home but it's really a souvenir of your contribution for this morning sessions Thanks to everyone and let's upload every way [Applause]