[Music] ladies and gentlemen we continue and this is a last part for today I think the most exciting one we have 31 questions and we have time until 5 I don't know if we will be able to answer all of them but if somebody got another question which is not included say here we can also try to accommodate it so we have a panel for speakers they gave four presentations and we look at the meat production started from supportive house and finishing in processing plant and in the shop so the whole chain of meat production was covered and now it's an opportunity to discuss more in details those questions which are more concern for those who are in meat production industry ok let's start from the first one will we ever get to a point where meat supply means integrators and customers restaurants and grocery stores are regulated to marketing truthful information who would like to answer maybe the answer will be no just I think I'll tell your opinion it's a matter of regulation and regulation is not in your hands and it depends on countries but do you believe that we will come to that point okay any more points any more suggestions maybe maybe the the author of the question can actually explain how elaborate a little bit more because I actually don't miss in a way you know we mean that there is no truthful information right now at this moment I don't okay so this is Rob surely from abyss yeah so in the United States we have a lot of grocery store chains as well as actual suppliers of meat putting out advertisements that are misleading in some way you know raised without hormones well we don't use hormones and feed so it's misleading to the public and so the public gets a misperception where's confused about what we actually do in agriculture another one is there's a large integrator that says race without ad raised without antibiotics not at our pharmacy so again there's a perception there that the livestock industry is being very bad about how it uses its antibiotics and why it uses antibiotics so we're almost sabotaging ourselves in the process of growing meat in a marketplace where we're competing against each other if that makes sense no I get no I particularly myself I can't okay we in total health 31 questions so we move move further so what does a new perspectives to be in for meat customers actually what meat producers are the purpose of meat producers is basically to fulfill meat customers so it depends on customers are in a way demanding from meat producers I think that the Sonja brought very nice images of what consumers will expect from the future in terms of probably in terms of not only not only a sensory properties for actually safety but actually for a question but I don't know if also the author would like to elaborate a bit more on that question I don't know exactly what what it means in terms but if we look at customer who educate customer if say somebody say customer wants this what does it mean how this came for example organic food another has a many issues which are related to poetry meet the customer Vaughn Samson do we educate customer do we do a scientist any work to actually help customer to understand what is wrong what is right what is the best or we just follow whatever customers saying well I understand the probably there is a little bit a little of everything definitely we are we are trying to satisfy the consumers the consumers consumers demands but at the same time we definitely have a responsibility of of there is a big issue now with with with the fact that red meats for instance has been has been recognized by the health World Organization as as a carcinogenic in that regard I think that the role played by the but this panel was not very good in terms of education I think that in a way those who are involved in image image quality on meat in the study of meat quality and meat production we are very lucky that actually the influence of that report was negligible on the on consumers because actually the numbers didn't move that much regarding the consumption of beef and processed red red meat but definitely I think that from the academia from the University and basically meat scientists we really need to make an effort in trying to explain to the population that we definitely that meat as Sonia said during the representation isn't only natural and nice and somebody actually is is there is no problem in eating meat and there's no risk oh you are not putting your life into a unnecessary risk by eating beef but actually I would say that is actually the opposite there are more risk by the letting meats from a parents diets that the other way around my point of view ok thank you what about organoleptic quality of the meat produced we covered many various parameters of meat but we did not pay mentions a taste we did not mention organoleptic and nutritional value of meat who would like to address an elective qualities of meat as I said in my presentation are going to influence of the expectation that the consumer has before parts of the the meat and it is obvious therefore yesterday marrying the fat content the color of the maize and and and so on and also after part of the the meat quality the 18 qualities we related mainly with my mouth feeling feelings at the texture the juiciness the sukkah lines and on also the taste the odor and the flavor definitely are going to contribute to the this experience quality and ease disappearin quality fulfill the expectations so the the satisfaction of the of the consumer would be will be will be reached so okay so consumers are worried about nutritional value of the of the myth of course but in some researchers and some studies seems that although this is a very important concern for consumers consumers preferred eat meat with star high fat content instead of meat with low fat content but with a low sensory properties so okay can we balance the consumer preference for organic production wise the fact that organic production is not sustainable environmentally friendly or done in a different way who would like to answer this one standard also there is kind of in a way the question reflects that the person who formulated that question doesn't believe that organic production is sustainable even though his organic production is defined as something that is supposed to be environmentally friendly production system but I understand the point no but if in fact are we misleading customers with organic production because scientifically there is no difference in a nutritional value between organically produced meat and normally not only differences in the nutritional value but also in the sensory properties there is no difference at all maybe the concentration of some particular residues I have no idea but definitely the overall quality of the meat is not changing depending if it's organic or no no so when you say that we are misleading and about the education to be honest I feel uncomfortable when we talk about educating further than explaining the reality of things we as scientists need to be active stand up and say hey guys there is no difference in nutritional value in newspaper because otherwise the message is very very mixed up and customer who has no education in nutrition will not understand then that job for guys who are in science to explain what is worth what is good what is bad exactly know that that's that's very true but actually I understand that the people who are willing to pay a higher price for organic products there are some ethical issues involved probably they are not particularly concerned about the nutritional value even though they consider they can be infirm that is exactly the same and also the sensory properties even though maybe some subjective feeling they have that they tomato organic tomato is juicy or the flavor is more intense please comment please yeah it's just a quick question or comment on I didn't write the question but the sustainability may go to the carbon footprint you know there's a lot of data that would say the carbon footprint of an organic broiler is huge compared to a conventional broiler just stands to reason I mean you're using organic corn yields are half what you get per acre tractor goes around the field same number of times less birds in the house you still heat it BTUs you know the lesser efficiency of production so their carbon footprint if that's what we define sustainability as would be poor but yet the average person walks in walks around and has this opinion that organic is truly sustainable you know very environmentally friendly when in reality or some perhaps some hard facts that say otherwise okay thank you okay of course your your right but on the other end it really depends how you express your reasons I mean if you see its per kilogram of meat that's for sure but then of course usually this the farm will be smaller and the local impact will be different also that's one point and concerning the quality of the meat the thing is it's not the same production scheme which means that usually you have animals with lower growth rate so you end up having a different product and some people may prefer this different product image but you can discuss that forever I am sure that everybody here being in the industrial production will conclude that it's irrational but I'm sure that you will not make the citizens I don't to the consumer because sometimes the consumers does different from the citizen but they will not follow you that's for sure ok let's let's move on what about the new meat sources production from bacteria plants how do consumer consider these new products any comments on this I think therefore nowadays from consumer these new meat stores might my stay very far away but anyhow I think that the production of this type of new meat source it's very expensive so maybe it's not more researcher and needed needed for for that I think all right new meat sources would be new protein animal protein sources but actually plant size not doesn't belong to that but I don't know if I also understood that maybe it could be related to this synthetic meat as a mutant needs new yes that is certainly a new meters this this cultured meat I don't know if there will be a question about that or not but this this alternative meat source is in particular this synthetic meat which is I understand it's a real new meters is something that I don't see for the future it's not only that is extremely expensive even though the purple of these cultural meets is to to save water and not to kill animals and all these kind of thing but the truth is that there is a problem with the price this is the first question and the second is the sensory properties because this culture meat has no texture there is no muscle architecture it's just my sites are growing in a petri plate ok thank you why is such a gap between consumer desire or high quality meat and willingness to pay as an example could be for example vitamin E it was proven that vitamin E can stabilize the meat it was done like 40 years ago I published my book in Russian language in 1994 it's called vitamin E and meat quality so many years passed a technology in 1994 was already developed showing that when you use with a means that those is like 500 ppm the stability of meat will be better but nobody wants to pay and that's why is the technology available but not in usage for your common this cap mentioned in that question has become larger and larger particularly with the crisis that we are suffering right now so basically of course that people is able to recognize good meat quality when they when it's in front of them and when they test was just that the matter of the of the of the of the crisis that that the people cannot afford high quality and then they can go to alternative these ready-to-eat meals burger patties or sausages while this intact meat pieces from very tender muscles such as tenderloin or steak so wherever the consumption has decreased and that dramatically in in Europe in Spain for instance that I know more in detail but also in some European countries while people is actually looking for these alternative sources of animal protein in low quality products and the main problem is basically that those ready-to-eat meals in process usually they are very severe processed and and the quality not only from technological sensory point-of-view a nutritional point of view is very very very low usually involves deep-frying a lot of fat quite a lot of potentially toxic compounds and not very healthy diets in you know so the gap is definitely getting let's look more practical from a management nutrition and genetics what solutions are currently available to reduce foodie breasts while stripping and green mask incidence in borås who would like to answer I think I try to answer to this question so I'm sorry but okay for green muscle disease is very clear so by many years you can look in internet and you can find answers for woody breast and Western I think is more complex because these are a new problem the main problem is genetics and genetic company are working on that by trying to find solution so right now we know that solution there are very few solution try to reduce the growth rate of the world by dietary strategies reduce the loader age rotor weight and maybe use some ingredient able to reduce oxidative stress okay but these are the only solution now okay okay thank you I think that these problems it's a nature fighting back because to produces 30% of breast meat who produces 70 gram per day it's not natural anymore so we go again it's nature and nature say hey hey stop stop stop stop stop just think and what made my see ramayana say that okay go back go back not 70 but 50 at 50 you will not have this but we genetics was working to get to 70 and okay we did not be mentioned as the problems with legs with the problems with with other problems therefore we are saying it seems to me a biological limit what we can do with and we need to think what is the next beer genetics can go further but what would the consequences know I definitely think that we could speak we could be answering this question to find answer to these questions for the rest of the afternoon and maybe tomorrow and day after tomorrow because there are many many factors involved but they are very very interesting because in fact for trying to find a solution for these new myopathies definitely we need to identify the real the etiology in a way and we actually don't know we know that it's related to fast growth and big sized animals but what about the underlying mechanisms unless we are able to identify the underlying mechanisms we will not be able for instance the oxidative stress was mentioned and then somebody may think that maybe management of the diets in increase in the oxidation stability of the of the meat through dietary antioxidants such as vitamin E or selenium or wherever could be helpful for trying to alleviate the symptoms or trying to reduce the incidence of this myopathies well actually some of the act as far as we know I think because we have been commenting this before there are no proof that those dietary manipulation could actually improve the situation so I think that in the presentation of Massimiliano there was very nice point is is it possible to reduce the incidence of these myopathies without modifying the management of the of the basically the growth of the animals so I think that probably there is no other option for trained trying to make it as slowly ER or basically as I probably in the industry it cut the point when they reduced the size of the animals at the slaughter and also the the day at the slaughter because for me right now there is no other way because controlling the oxidative is through oxidative stress is not the cause but actually probably one of the consequences of this of this problem and basically we could alleviate the symptoms but not to control them okay thank you so what can be seen is even if you don't work on the myopathies so-called normal chickens but currently so muscle is not normal anymore in that for example the nuclei are not outside of the mushroom but that's in the center of the fiber which is a sign of abnormal muscle and you have all this expression of different genes that I showed you so I mean really it's a trend which is so myopathies are the extreme condition but the fast growing chickens they are not they are not quite normal so maybe one I don't know if it's one answer or not but of course the breeder what they want is identifies a good gene and get rid of the bad genes well maybe they manage we will see but if not another option is to change the production schemes for example as you have seen the Dutch they've decided to make the chicken of tomorrow which is the chicken of yesterday in fact in fact that is from the market of the fresh meat and in fact the main problem which we didn't discuss me is that people they have an idea of our chicken should be bred but at the same time what they want is further processed products and this product for this as the value is added to want processing it means that the room it shouldn't be too expensive otherwise the price I mean if you have an organic chicken and if you want to process the meat that will be impossible the price will be twice so I mean there is really a contradiction between what the citizen would like and what the consumer is wanting and it's also true for organoleptic characteristics organoleptic characteristics that replies very well - to the wall carcass but then for transformed product it's very different because the technology makes a good part of you okay okay thank you is there any impact of stress during slaughtering on meat quality of course yes especially during bracelet episode in during catching during transportation during rage as I showed you promote pee pale soft and exudative meet or otherwise if there is a chronic stress very long fit withdrawal very long transportation especially during winter season you can promote dark firm and dry meet there is genetic control of the amount of glycogen in the muscle but there is also environmental effect on the glycogen that remain in the module from the time bird our feed withdrawn and until the the loitering okay thank you does vitamin D have effect on muscle hypertrophy any comments I think it needs to be demonstrated but I mean it it is it is suggestive but and in fact which I mean they can have an effect for example on muscle cells I mean all the signaling mechanism are operating but what is the net effect I think it remains to be demonstrated right is there any relationship between who the breast and satellite cell grows there is a study published by Vela man from Ohio State University and she demonstrates a link between hoody breast and satellite cell growth it seems that in woody breast muscles there is like a suppression of the ability of satellite cell to a regenerative process so it seems that there is a link okay thank you if I may add something because I have been working on that topic wine for a while what happens is that in the muscle you you you have muscle satellite cell which will regenerate so muscle but you have also other precursors for example you have a febrile adipocyte precursor and in fact it could be that the growth of zeus febrile adipocyte precursor is stimulated at the expense of the satellite cell so that's probably an imbalance but that's what happened in in human myopathies okay thank you which feed additives can help reduce food and breast if any information available there are there are attempts for trying to control or to decrease the incidence of this myopathies using dietary strategies but so far as far as far as I know there are no no conclusive results right before we understood mechanisms probably it's too early to find a solution maybe maybe yeah how does variation in incubation and hutchins affect the incidence for again is to the development of this problems with meat epigenetic effects there are no study on the effect of etching and incubation of course we can suppose that the reason effect because a qing and incubation may affect a muscle growth so we can expect that there is a relationship but no study are general policies will be that it would be better to promote muscle growth by adding more fibers and bigger fibers but the question next is how to do that and as the number of fibers is determined during embryo growth then you may expect that if you were able to modify it you may improve things but it's it's a dream rather than a reality I think yeah I think that the epigenetic effects we just started to understand that what we actually invest in breeders would affect progeny in the long term there are not much published yet but if we look at the medical sciences if we look at the human sciences today is a maternal effects that something's the most quickly developing and this maternal effect can be seen like a few weeks of pregnancy woman a woman determine future baby girls until the end of baby's life like until 80 90 years old that's something which is very quickly developing and for poetry okay there are few papers for example showing that selenium supplementation of the breeders it's come coming from China couple publications they show that there is a effect of organic selenium supplemented to breeders at 56 days a time of killing birds therefore it just indications as there is Sampson and the epigenetic effect in poetry even bigger than in anything else because once you have eggs end of story in mammalian species of case there is a relationship between mother and fetus development but in chicken not once you have an egg end of stories effort to obtain optimal composition of egg probably the most important point okay how important is taste compared to rapid growth in broilers and how important do you think taste in to is to consumers to trim it as a very natural might flavor because it's very very lean so I think taste is not the main attribute for meat quality for poultry because you can like or no beef meat because there is a special flavor and the same for pork meat but if you eat breast meat if you make a comparison between breast meat egg mix okay but you need to eat meat with the skin so with the fat mm-hm and so but you know modern consumer are not very do not like very much strong flavor like they prefer neutral flavor no a lot of various editors yeah this is the reason because chicken meat is very good for further processing because you can head everything okay while for beef meat you need to respect the flavor of beef meat and so this is one of the reason of the success of Putra meat because of the natural flavor so I think that the taste the tenderness is important not the taste I think I'm for the for the beef tenderness and paste both also for pork okay any more comments what is the effect of ambient temperature on the transportation press loud on submit quality issues more or less I think it's been it's been said before that is pre slaughter parameters and particularly the temperature is definitely affecting this is very very very easily - very easy to observe in somebody like for instance in okay okay some animal welfare guidelines require purchased throughout the bond for pyrolysis this seems like a bad idea when it comes to GM disease any ideas on this there are some idea that it's good to promote wing flapping for the bird because in this in this way bird are able to exercise okay wing flapping and maybe they are more resistant to green mass or disease so it can be a good option in the Hakuna option continuing to to this one what is the correlation between feed ban and green mass disease if any no one no one know that may be the weight is a direct relationship okay how do you explain the less protein and more water while usually people mentioned tissue protein increase in company by high water content but we are speaking about muscle degeneration okay the general rules is that in meat if you increase fat okay you have a reduction of protein and water but for muscle abnormality we are speaking about fiber degeneration so this doesn't follow the normal relationship I want it depends on which product you're talking about because if if you look at the relatively light chicken 2.2 kilos well you kill it younger and younger and protein to water increases with age so which means that if they if you if you slaughter a younger animal you have iron water to protein ratio then the problem is different with older animal because it increases but then you have other other difficulties what is the practical time at slaughterhouse for the rigor mortis development how long carcasses should be left before cut the bone okay at least six eight hours this is the minimum time to make a bowl rigor mortis to be solved six eight hours the best is 24 hour okay thank you as relating to wood and meat white stripping and as a spaghetti meat what is the current processing condemned it may vary from country to country and to slaughter house to slaughterhouse in Italy there is no condemnation there is just downgrading but I know that in some plant there is also condemnation for example I heard in UK there are in some plant in UK where veterinary inspector say that this kind of meet must be contended so it depends on okay on this on the view of the veterinary inspection okay what is the role of insulin and fat the position in the white strip disease if any it's number twenty nine people said there is some indication of insulin resistance in because muscle is supposed to be a very insulin sensitive tissue but then if you have trouble then you will turn metabolism to burn fat and that's usually a sign of insulin resistance in your muscle okay hesitating to mention some care or not and now that we are very close to the end and I think that the rest of the questions I'm more or less more or less related some questions that were answered before I wanted to comment something on this combination and the destiny of of these types of meat because I wanted to to come up with something that was not mentioned before and actually something that maybe Massimiliano can can maybe clarify I really don't know because it is very clear that wouldn't breast white stripe in and definitely the aspetta meat because it's a very severe form of the other previous to the technological properties of the meat is impaired also then then the sensory properties the nutritional value to some extent I understand also but what about is there any regarding that you know if actually there is there any problem in consuming this kind of neat fresh meat after cooking or whatever is there any a safety concern because we basically meat coming from in a way like is from sick animals in a way so a what about the the safety concerns now we can say that there is no safety concern the only concern is about the increase in the pH and so this can promote spoilage of the meat but this is not a food safety issue but is a shelf-life issue so right now there are no study showing that there is also an effect on food safety as well as we do with the PS a-- meats basically we can we can use it for further processing us as long as the appearance and some other sensory properties are completely spoiled so we can we can use because that's the technical properties one of your papers is very clearly shown that the technical properties are exported so in a way we we can mix this wooden brace and white striping with some of the normal meats or using some technological assistance to try to enhance the Technol properties to produce them so muscle foods so so that's basically the okay okay thank you after maximizing satellite cell proliferation grows in differentiation status should we reduce digester emanation in growing was the one any comment on that it's it's a difficult question because when it also relates to the one before the satellite cell I mean they are very active just after what happened at hatch in breast muscle so that sent a very inactive and as soon as you feed the birds you have a very intensive proliferation of the cells and then they will fuse with fibers and the question is whether they will make the fiber grow or whether they will make new fiber it remains an open question and I don't think of course I mean acids are very necessary during this process but we don't know exactly the balance which would favor the ideal development I mean it's really a matter of further research but well yes of course even you you tend to reduce the protein and amino acid in the feed we in order anymore okay let's try a question please just one more question you didn't mention contamination with computer back to easy to see the consume yeah basically I had to make a selection of potential spoilage and pathogens in meat but the one that you mentioned is also extremely common particularly in poultry carcasses and it's also a hazard that we should take into consideration is I didn't mention that one because I didn't mention some others I just tried to focus on the most relevant some in fact that was another candidate to be present in my slide but it's I didn't forget about how about that one because actually it's very it's extremely common okay any more questions from audience let's try to answer last one how nutrition can improve meat quality and it's specific emphasis I would like to hear your opinion because we know that traditional antioxidants like vitamin E not affect in protein oxidation therefore what we can do okay let me let me go to that place first was it in 1982 when you said that vitamin E and meat quality so it's been a long time ago that the relation between dietary antioxidants and its quality I there in fact some studies in which there is also benefits on protein oxidation even though because you know basically the vitamin E is protecting phospholipids for membranes against oxidation and in a way it is believed that lipid oxidation that is initiated in the membrane can actually be transferred to proteins also located in the pro in the in the in the membrane and and to proteins in the cytoplasm but it is very true that the results are not so so it's not so clear as if when compared with lipid oxidation so the effects of vitamin E supplementation against lipid oxidation in meats is very clear yes it's so the results are very remarkable protein oxidation we always get lower results probably because most of the protein in muscle cells are located in the cytoplasm so and and in that and the vitamin E is not there press it's just a matter of location of possibilities of protecting the proteins against the action of free radicals it's just that the location is completely different so maybe supplementation with some other some other some other micronutrients such as the selenium may be antioxidant enzymes can actually protect proteins against oxidation maybe some other chemicals also coming from natural resources what about phytochemicals mmm there is no proof that they are accumulated as a third highest extent in you need so okay we need more research but clearly when we look at the methionine sulfur oxide reductase be Syrena protein which specifically involved in prevention of protein oxidation which together with psychotics and reductase another Salina protein which specifically can decrease protein oxidation and that's that's a topic 2016-2017 we just started to understand that yes there are specific enzymes which are preventing protein oxidation we just need to do more research and the last paper which came in 2017 already showing that hydroxyl in a methionine improve activity of this specific serine a protein so there is some promises but we need to do a bit of work anymore just a very short sentence to act to do that last year we were in China in the in the in the previous advance in the last advanced a seminar in in Beijing and we were talking about sulfur amino acids and actually I I gave a presentation and we were talking about how sulfur amino acids can actually act as endogenous antioxidants in the protein and actually there is this biological biological mechanism has been very well described in medicine and in a way we are trying to get these these informations to to the to the to food science because this sulfur amino acids they actually present in the glutathione and they can definitely escovitch radicals and protect some other amino acids from the protein so sulfur amino acids so they have this oxidant properties okay thank you any questions from audience okay we came to the end okay we did not answer all questions we answer some of them I think this session was successful all this for presentation made us aware about a lot of problems which sometimes we do not see we know today is that genetic genetics doing a very good job we know today that I already mentioned that an age has started to fight back we need to be very careful where we go in we know today is that for example organic meat and normal meat in many cases very similar however if you take into account these comments from Mike a missile that okay if the organic is growing slower then the meat quality will be different but actually in the UK is there is already a tendency to produce slow grow in broilers they do not say it's organic just slow go in like 70 80 days okay it's more expensive but at least you can you could have a taste out of that meat we know that this issue meat production is connected to genetics to environment and nutrition and all this say topics more or less were discussed and we we know that there are a lot of prospector head and I thank you very much all of you for participation [Applause] [Music] you